Core of the digital M

[SrMi]

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3 minutes ago, jaapv said:

As I said the shutter shock is analogous to camera movement @ 1/125. 

I do not understand. The vibration caused by the slap is different than handholding movements which are independent of shutter speed.

Edited July 1, 2022 by SrMi

[hdmesa]

46 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Some people insist that the removable bottom plate is the core of an M, not because it helps, but because it was always there. 
I like the feel of a mechanical shutter as it “wraps up” an exposure, but I would also not call it the core of an M camera.

Yes, that's really my main point: people are confusing the "core of their digital M requirements" with the "core of the digital M".

 

44 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I do not understand. The vibration caused by the slap is different than handholding movements which are independent of shutter speed.

Not only that, but IBIS on the R5 has interacted strangely with shutter shock at certain shutter speeds, requiring firmware updates. That said, there are certain shutter speeds that are more vulnerable to shutter shock and/or negatively affecting IBIS than others.

Point being: Shutter shock can interfere with IBIS, it is not mitigated by IBIS. Shutter shock is a strong vibration that occurs at and during exposure, whereas movement of the photographer can be anticipated based on movement leading up to exposure.

Edited July 1, 2022 by hdmesa

[lct]

Most if not all modern mirrorless cameras have both IBIS and Electronic front curtain shutter (EFCS). One can choose to enable IBIS, EFCS or both as i can do at will on my 7 years old A7r2 mod. Problem with the M11 it has none, reason why i strugle with motion blur due to the lack of IBIS and stapler noise due to the lack of EFCS. On my A7r2, EFCS divides the duration of the shutter noise by 2 more or less. Leica said there was no room enough in the M11 body to implement IBIS if i remember well but did they communicate about the lack of EFCS? Just curious

[FlashGordonPhotography]

22 hours ago, jaapv said:

Could you please explain? As far as I can see, shutter shock induces camera movement (causing motion blur) and IBIS is designed to counteract camera motion.
One could argue that the frequency of shutter shock might be too high for an IBIS system, but this is not the case. Panasonic offers an automatic Electronic Shutter system on some models which only kicks in at shutter speeds that are at risk shutter shock with the most used lenses  and that is around 1/125  IBIS certainly can cope with that range  
 

 

Er

That’s not actually what Panasonic (or Fuji and others who have the same system) does.

The hybrid system they use can limit EFCS to lower shutter speeds because at around 1/250th with some sensors, EFCS has a weird impact on bokeh. It can also cause banding and subtle striping at some shutter speeds plus you may see an effect from pulsing light sources. Most of these are more visible at high shutter speeds so EFCS is turned off at 1/125th.

What some companies do (I know Olympus did this with the EM series and I think Nikon and others) is have a variable shutter delay as shutter shock only happens at certain shutter speeds and is related to how the shutter speed and first shutter curtain react to each other. It’s kind of like a harmonic effect that results in a subtle double image. At the affected shutter speeds they delay the first curtain a few milliseconds, which seems to remove the harmonic. They later developed the *anti-shock* system which was basically adding EFCS.

I have seen zero need for EFCS on the M11 but since Leica is a user experience camera company having it might improve that for some. That’s all. It’s code. Nothing more.

On my other systems I generally leave EFCS turned off as I sensitive to the impact it can have in image quality. Most won’t notice it.

IBIS, on the other hand is calculated microseconds before the exposure and applied when the shutter opens. Kind of like noise cancelling headphones.

Gordon

Edited July 1, 2022 by FlashGordonPhotography

[SrMi]

4 hours ago, lct said:

Most if not all modern mirrorless cameras have both IBIS and Electronic front curtain shutter (EFCS). One can choose to enable IBIS, EFCS or both as i can do at will on my 7 years old A7r2 mod. Problem with the M11 it has none, reason why i strugle with motion blur due to the lack of IBIS and stapler noise due to the lack of EFCS. On my A7r2, EFCS divides the duration of the shutter noise by 2 more or less. Leica said there was no room enough in the M11 body to implement IBIS if i remember well but did they communicate about the lack of EFCS? Just curious

You add EFCS to a camera only to fix shutter shock issues. AFAIK, M11 has no shutter shock issues. Adding it to M11 would be purely acoustic cosmetics and would complicate M11 (another shutter option that needs to be handled properly).

[hdmesa]

26 minutes ago, SrMi said:

You add EFCS to a camera only to fix shutter shock issues. AFAIK, M11 has no shutter shock issues. Adding it to M11 would be purely acoustic cosmetics and would complicate M11 (another shutter option that needs to be handled properly).

Yes, it's "AFAIK" since no one has tested it  

Like I've tried to explain before, reducing shutter shock is not the only benefit of EFCS. Sony doesn't even mention shutter shock when describing the purpose of EFCS.

https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00018997

The electronic front curtain shutter function is available on newer camera models. It shortens the time lag between shutter releases and helps reduce shutter noise when taking pictures. This function can be turned on or off under the camera menu settings.

[SrMi]

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9 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Yes, it's "AFAIK" since no one has tested it  

I did test it and published it in an early post in this forum.

Until someone can demonstrate shutter shock, I will assume there is none in M11.

[SrMi]

15 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Yes, it's "AFAIK" since no one has tested it  

Like I've tried to explain before, reducing shutter shock is not the only benefit of EFCS. Sony doesn't even mention shutter shock when describing the purpose of EFCS.

https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00018997

The electronic front curtain shutter function is available on newer camera models. It shortens the time lag between shutter releases and helps reduce shutter noise when taking pictures. This function can be turned on or off under the camera menu settings.

I wonder why Sony did not want to mention that their cameras have a problem (shutter shock) that requires using EFCS🤔.

[hdmesa]

8 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I wonder why Sony did not want to mention that their cameras have a problem (shutter shock) that requires using EFCS🤔.

IDK, all I can say is reduced shutter volume and reduced lag are real benefits of EFCS even if it's not valuable to you personally (or so it seems from what you're saying).

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

That’s not actually what Panasonic (or Fuji and others who have the same system) does.

The hybrid system they use can limit EFCS to lower shutter speeds because at around 1/250th with some sensors, EFCS has a weird impact on bokeh. It can also cause banding and subtle striping at some shutter speeds plus you may see an effect from pulsing light sources. Most of these are more visible at high shutter speeds so EFCS is turned off at 1/125th.

What some companies do (I know Olympus did this with the EM series and I think Nikon and others) is have a variable shutter delay as shutter shock only happens at certain shutter speeds and is related to how the shutter speed and first shutter curtain react to each other. It’s kind of like a harmonic effect that results in a subtle double image. At the affected shutter speeds they delay the first curtain a few milliseconds, which seems to remove the harmonic. They later developed the *anti-shock* system which was basically adding EFCS.

I have seen zero need for EFCS on the M11 but since Leica is a user experience camera company having it might improve that for some. That’s all. It’s code. Nothing more.

On my other systems I generally leave EFCS turned off as I sensitive to the impact it can have in image quality. Most won’t notice it.

IBIS, on the other hand is calculated microseconds before the exposure and applied when the shutter opens. Kind of like noise cancelling headphones.

Gordon

That is not how my GX8 works… https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4037041

However, you are right for Panasonics that have EFCS. 

[hdmesa]

26 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I did test it and published it in an early post in this forum.

Until someone can demonstrate shutter shock, I will assume there is none in M11.

I probably read that post and forgot already, lol. Reduction of shutter shock is not why I want EFCS. EFCS literally cuts the shutter duration in half. It would make it just like the M10-P/R sounds in classic rangefinder mode. This is a big deal to some of us. EFCS is good wide open to about 1/250 sec. and at any shutter speed if stopped down.

I care a bit less about lag since I never shoot in continuous mode, but EFCS should help there, too. On the A7R4, EFCS cuts shutter lag substantially:

...0.124 second with EFCS, and 0.194 second without....

Edited July 2, 2022 by hdmesa

[SrMi]

15 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

IDK, all I can say is reduced shutter volume and reduced lag are real benefits of EFCS even if it's not valuable to you personally (or so it seems from what you're saying).

Yes, the lag reduction is significant with EFCS, though my impression is that the M11 lag is low enough. It would be nice if we could measure it to be much faster than M10-R 😄.

The possibility of image degradation because of EFCS are real (described in the linked document). The correct operation may confuse some Leica M owners.

Personally, I would be not opposed adding EFCS.

 

[harmen]

7 hours ago, SrMi said:

Some people insist that the removable bottom plate is the core of an M, not because it helps, but because it was always there. 
I like the feel of a mechanical shutter as it “wraps up” an exposure, but I would also not call it the core of an M camera.

No, no, no.  It’s the frameline illumination window that is the core of the M.  Removing it has literally defaced the camera.  😝

[lct]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

You add EFCS to a camera only to fix shutter shock issues. AFAIK, M11 has no shutter shock issues. Adding it to M11 would be purely acoustic cosmetics and would complicate M11 (another shutter option that needs to be handled properly).

EFCS can reduce considerably the length of the shutter noise. By half more or less i would say as far as my Sony camera is concerned. The stapler sound of the M11 gives a feeling of lack of responsiveness having little to do with acoustic cosmetics IMHO. You (at least i) never know when the shutter triggers exactly and the Leica M11 is the only camera i know of giving this feeling actually. I can live with this flaw personally but some camera brands (Olympus?) seem to have implemented EFCS by firmware IINW, reason why i asked if Leica did communicate about EFCS on the M11.

[hdmesa]

26 minutes ago, lct said:

EFCS can reduce considerably the length of the shutter noise. By half more or less i would say as far as my Sony camera is concerned. The stapler sound of the M11 gives a feeling of lack of responsiveness having little to do with acoustic cosmetics IMHO. You (at least i) never know when the shutter triggers exactly and the Leica M11 is the only camera i know of giving this feeling actually. I can live with this flaw personally but some camera brands (Olympus?) seem to have implemented EFCS by firmware IINW, reason why i asked if Leica did communicate about EFCS on the M11.

Leica just doesn't implement EFCS, otherwise it would be on the SL cameras, too. But I hope they will change their mind and add it to both camera lines, especially since it would help reduce the complaints about the M11 shutter duration/sound.

[hdmesa]

55 minutes ago, SrMi said:

...The possibility of image degradation because of EFCS are real (described in the linked document). The correct operation may confuse some Leica M owners....

 

Yes, true. And trying to explain what is going on takes a degree in rocket science. Simply explaining how to avoid it is another headache. Canon, though, they just throw their users to the EFCS wolves by making it the default shutter mode with only a mention in the manual of how it may cause artifacts wide open at higher shutter speeds. However, Fujifilm did it right – they have EFCS as default, but at least they give the option for a hybrid shutter mode that auto-switches from EFCS to mechanical at the appropriate shutter speed (in the case of the GFX 50S/R that is 1/500 sec., not sure about the 100S). Fujifilm has a second hybrid "extended" mode that also includes the auto-switch to electronic shutter – so that mode does all three, EFCS then mechanical then electronic, all at the right shutter speeds. Leica would want to follow the Fujifilm example, IMO – otherwise you'd have Noct 0.95 shooters wondering why their bokeh at f/0.95 looks like it does at f/2 and/or why their bokeh balls are cut in half.

[SrMi]

28 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Leica just doesn't implement EFCS, otherwise it would be on the SL cameras, too. But I hope they will change their mind and add it to both camera lines, especially since it would help reduce the complaints about the M11 shutter duration/sound.

There will always be complaints about M11 😁.

Has anyone received a feedback from Leica regarding EFCS?

[FlashGordonPhotography]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

I probably read that post and forgot already, lol. Reduction of shutter shock is not why I want EFCS. EFCS literally cuts the shutter duration in half. It would make it just like the M10-P/R sounds in classic rangefinder mode. This is a big deal to some of us. EFCS is good wide open to about 1/250 sec. and at any shutter speed if stopped down.

I care a bit less about lag since I never shoot in continuous mode, but EFCS should help there, too. On the A7R4, EFCS cuts shutter lag substantially:

...0.124 second with EFCS, and 0.194 second without....

So, shorter but both within the difference a shooter would have in reaction time. If you don’t believe this try and get the shortest start stop times you can with a stopwatch and look at how inconsistent you are.

AFAIK the ECFS was in reaction to the shutter on the original A7R when the A7R2 was released.

It’s also worth noting that all leaf shutters on digital cameras do this. It’s a non event, except for objections to the sound.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

1 hour ago, lct said:

EFCS can reduce considerably the length of the shutter noise. By half more or less i would say as far as my Sony camera is concerned. The stapler sound of the M11 gives a feeling of lack of responsiveness having little to do with acoustic cosmetics IMHO. You (at least i) never know when the shutter triggers exactly and the Leica M11 is the only camera i know of giving this feeling actually. I can live with this flaw personally but some camera brands (Olympus?) seem to have implemented EFCS by firmware IINW, reason why i asked if Leica did communicate about EFCS on the M11.

Leica did release the shutter lag times for the M11.

Gordon

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[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

There will always be complaints about M11 😁.

Has anyone received a feedback from Leica regarding EFCS?

If they haven't put it in the SL2/SL2-S, that's all the feedback we need right there