Core of the digital M

[hdmesa]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

16 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I don't know, but allow me to speculate. 
The power-saving mode for sensor access for metering purposes seems new. I assume that the Extended EVF mode is the same as in the previous cameras, i.e., same sensor access as if EVF/LCD is on. Since an active EVF is the main power drain (even more so than the LCD), the power lost by full access to the sensor may not be that relevant.
Again, only speculating.

Right, but I was questioning the power draw with LV "on" in Extended – but when the EVF hasn't been activated by my eye. I can use the rangefinder in Extended mode without the EVF ever coming on. I'm assuming that EVF Extended mode means even though LV is "on", it's not activated until the eye sensor turns on the EVF – and until then the off-sensor metering works like it does with LV "off". 

Reason I was thinking about this: When using EVF Extended with LV "on", if I never put my eye to the EVF to turn it on, will I be using more battery than with LV "off"?

Edited June 27, 2022 by hdmesa

[SrMi]

24 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Right, but I was questioning the power draw with LV "on" in Extended – but when the EVF hasn't been activated by my eye. I can use the rangefinder in Extended mode without the EVF ever coming on. I'm assuming that EVF Extended mode means even though LV is "on", it's not activated until the eye sensor turns on the EVF – and until then the off-sensor metering works like it does with LV "off". 

Reason I was thinking about this: When using EVF Extended with LV "on", if I never put my eye to the EVF to turn it on, will I be using more battery than with LV "off"?

My guess is yes. BTW, EVF can get activated when you hold the camera close to your body, etc. I use Extended Mode to avoid annoying live LCD, not to save battery. Again, I am only guessing as I have not measured the power consumption.

[IkarusJohn]

The distinctions are all very well, but the fundamental point for me is the difference from the M cameras I already own.  Turn on the camera, and the shutter is open, making exposure readings and the like.  “Live view” is the simplest and most accurate way to capture that distinction - other live view cameras also carried out functions when the camera is not in use, making readings, focusing and the like (the X1D II gets very hot if you leave it on hanging over your shoulder).  It’s not just about whether or not the LCD is live.  That is largely insignificant to the more general concept that the shutter is open and remains open when the camera is on.

I appreciate others have a different view.

[Kwesi]

Question for you IkarusJohn: If Leica were to make an M11D without EVF option but kept off sensor metering, would you consider it to be a "live view" camera?

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Kwesi]

sorry for the huge screen grab

Edited June 27, 2022 by Kwesi
added: huge

[IkarusJohn]

43 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Question for you IkarusJohn: If Leica were to make an M11D without EVF option but kept off sensor metering, would you consider it to be a "live view" camera?

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Yep.

I would love it if they did make an M11-D, but if it had a rangefinder, and no EVF compatibility, why have it in live view?  While many seem to think that multi-field exposure metering is a good thing, I don’t.  As a sole choice.

As I have an EVF for my M10-D, and I have a TL2 and SL, I am very familiar with all the various types of metering.  My experience is that unless you go the full zone route, with a 1° Gossen spot meter which does all the calculations for you, or you do the more accurate incident metering with a hand-held meter, all reflective in-camera metering involves a compromise of some sort, with the camera trying to achieve average grey somewhere.

I know what my M cameras are metering off the shutter; the camera is not making decisions for me; I can easily and reliably adjust my exposure based on what the centre-weighted metering is telling me and what I see in the viewfinder.

If you’re using an M11, with multi-field metering as standard, but not using the EVF, how do you know what the camera has selected for you?  At best, it has averaged the entire frame, which is not very helpful …

Edited June 27, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[lct]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Glad i ordered the M11 before knowing, or trying to know, all that stuff. Ignorance is bliss . Now what some non-M11 and even M11 users are thinking, i guess, is that they don't want to be stuck in LV mode when they don't need to. They want to stay or return in classic mode each time they want. This way they wouldn't have to endure the stapler sound and a long shutter actuation they don't need at all.  I could have said "we" instead of "they" but i don't care much TBH.

[hdmesa]

5 minutes ago, lct said:

Glad i ordered the M11 before knowing, or trying to know, all that stuff. Ignorance is bliss . Now what some non-M11 and even M11 users are thinking, i guess, is that they don't want to be stuck in LV mode when they don't need to. They want to stay or return in classic mode each time they want. This way they wouldn't have to endure the stapler sound and a long shutter actuation they don't need at all.  I could have said "we" instead of "they" but i don't care much TBH.

Only that's not possible on the M11 since they removed the 18% gray shutter blades and the old-school meter. There can never be a classic rangefinder metering mode on the M11. Of course they can do anything they want to with future M11 variants.

[hdmesa]

12 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Yep.

I would love it if they did make an M11-D, but if it had a rangefinder, and no EVF compatibility, why have it in live view?  While many seem to think that multi-field exposure metering is a good thing, I don’t.  As a sole choice.

As I have an EVF for my M10-D, and I have a TL2 and SL, I am very familiar with all the various types of metering.  My experience is that unless you go the full zone route, with a 1° Gossen spot meter which does all the calculations for you, or you do the more accurate incident metering with a hand-held meter, all reflective in-camera metering involves a compromise of some sort, with the camera trying to achieve average grey somewhere.

I know what my M cameras are metering off the shutter; the camera is not making decisions for me; I can easily and reliably adjust my exposure based on what the centre-weighted metering is telling me and what I see in the viewfinder.

If you’re using an M11, with multi-field metering as standard, but not using the EVF, how do you know what the camera has selected for you?  At best, it has averaged the entire frame, which is not very helpful …

Maybe we can differentiate this way:

Live View

versus

Live View Metering (sensor-based metering)

//

Re: Pre-M11 shutter blade metering –> that's all well and good until I'm using Mono sensor (almost zero leeway for blown highlights), a wide aperture lens known for heavy vignetting, max aperture, and in high contrast lighting. The shutter blade metering is all over the map sometimes, and I had to resort to bracketing.

[lct]

23 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Only that's not possible on the M11 since they removed the 18% gray shutter blades and the old-school meter. There can never be a classic rangefinder metering mode on the M11. Of course they can do anything they want to with future M11 variants.

That's what i understand but i'm not sure all M users are aware that they will be stuck in LV mode if they acquire an M11. Not a good way to push M11 sales i guess but truth must be said and more clearly so than by letting believe that we can quit the LV mode by pushing the LV button...

Edited June 27, 2022 by lct

[IkarusJohn]

11 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Maybe we can differentiate this way:

Live View

versus

Live View Metering (sensor-based metering)

//

Re: Pre-M11 shutter blade metering –> that's all well and good until I'm using Mono sensor (almost zero leeway for blown highlights), a wide aperture lens known for heavy vignetting, max aperture, and in high contrast lighting. The shutter blade metering is all over the map sometimes, and I had to resort to bracketing.

I doubt there is any misunderstanding in the point I’m making when I refer to live view, but whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Having used the first version of the Monochrom since it’s release, I can’t say I share your experience.  Mine is set permanently at -2/3 EV compensation, and I’m generally careful with highlights.  If in doubt, I check the excellent raw histogram (what happened to that very useful feature?) or bracket.  That’s no hardship.

I haven’t found that metering or exposure affects vignetting, and contrast is its own problem …

Unlike some posts here, I’m not for a moment saying my methods are best.  Far from it.  I am simply lamenting the loss of a simple, effective and reliable means of metering for what I don’t see as an improvement and with the added, unattractive, complication of the sensor being permanently live.  I don’t see this iteration of the M camera adding anything to what I already have with an M10 series camera.

The point of my original post was not, as it happens, to start another analysis of the benefits for some (and defence for others) of the M11; but to ask the question, what defines the M system, though all its variants down to the more complicated options in the digital M.

Edited June 27, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[hdmesa]

4 minutes ago, lct said:

That's what i understand but i'm not sure all M users are aware that they will be stuck in LV mode if they acquire an M11. Not a good way to push M11 sales i guess but truth must be said and more clearly so than by making believe that we can quit the LV mode by pushing the LV button...

It's been pretty clear to those following the M11 release. The sensor-based metering was featured front-and-center with the M11 marketing. It's mentioned in the reviews. It's mentioned in the forum threads about the M11 even before anyone got one.

Also – we technically don't know what they are doing when LV is off. Sensor-based metering could involve binning/line-skipping/pixel-averaging – something that takes even less power.

But if someone wasn't paying attention to M11 stuff and just waltzed into their Leica dealer and bought an M11 sight unseen, they might wonder WTF is going on when the shutter opens the first time they power it on, sure

[hdmesa]

10 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I doubt there is any misunderstanding in the point I’m making when I refer to live view, but whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Having used the first version of the Monochrom since it’s release, I can’t say I share your experience.  Mine is set permanently at -2/3 EV compensation, and I’m generally careful with highlights.  If in doubt, I check the excellent raw histogram (what happened to that very useful feature?) or bracket.  That’s no hardship.

I haven’t found that metering or exposure affects vignetting, and contrast is its own problem …

Unlike some posts here, I’m not for a moment saying my methods are best.  Far from it.  I am simply lamenting the loss of a simple, effective and reliable means of metering for what I don’t see as an improvement and with the added, unattractive, complication of the sensor being permanently live.  I don’t see this iteration of the M camera adding anything to what I already have with an M10 series camera.

The point of my original post was not, as it happens, to start another analysis of the benefits for some (and defence for others) of the M11; but to ask the question, what defines the M system, though all its variants down to the more complicated options in the digital M.

I understand. Perhaps I was too addicted to creating exposures with a perfect histogram, so setting exposure compensation to a negative value permanently was difficult to swallow.

As for vignetting, say with the 28 Lux at f/1.4 – it was easy to blow highlights in the center of the frame for me with the M10M, even with some negative EC.

As for high contrast lighting (patchy/changing), the shutter blade metering often did not respond well to small changes in lighting, often leading to unexpected results. It was easily fooled by some scenes as well. A permanent -EC would often result in a shot that was underexposed further than I would like.

Edited June 27, 2022 by hdmesa

[IkarusJohn]

4 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I understand. Perhaps I was too addicted to creating exposures with a perfect histogram, so setting exposure compensation to a negative value permanently was difficult to swallow.

As for vignetting, say with the 28 Lux at f/1.4 – it was easy to blow highlights in the center of the frame for me with the M10M, even with some negative EC.

Interesting.  But are blown highlights with vignetting really an exposure problem?  Recovery of under-exposure is relatively straightforward, and vignetting recedes with reduced aperture.  Not wishing to dismiss your experience, but dynamic range limitations are just a fact of photography.  B&W film has greater leeway than colour slide and colour digital - never paused to think if my Monochrom has greater dynamic range.  I always presumed not - what is blown is blown, which is why I under-expose then adjust (along with contrast) in post.  The raw files are fantastically flexible - grain from the Monochrom is so much better than nasty noise from a colour sensor.

To be perfectly honest, though - I am just a person who takes photos for pleasure.  I don’t spend a lot of time exploring the limits of my lenses or dynamic range, MTF charts or anything like that.  I do like to get focus, framing and exposure as “right” as I can, and the haptics of my cameras and lenses mean more to me than they should.  Once I’ve got my head around how my chosen camera works, and if I’m generally happy with it, I get on with it.  I can rarely remember more about the technical side of the cameras I have than what I use and the way I use them.  I’m often surprised to find a feature I’ve long forgotten about, particularly with the more complicated cameras like the SL.  Never used video on that, but there’s always a first time if I can remember how to start it up.

[hdmesa]

13 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Interesting.  But are blown highlights with vignetting really an exposure problem?  Recovery of under-exposure is relatively straightforward, and vignetting recedes with reduced aperture.  Not wishing to dismiss your experience, but dynamic range limitations are just a fact of photography.  B&W film has greater leeway than colour slide and colour digital - never paused to think if my Monochrom has greater dynamic range.  I always presumed not - what is blown is blown, which is why I under-expose then adjust (along with contrast) in post.  The raw files are fantastically flexible - grain from the Monochrom is so much better than nasty noise from a colour sensor.

To be perfectly honest, though - I am just a person who takes photos for pleasure.  I don’t spend a lot of time exploring the limits of my lenses or dynamic range, MTF charts or anything like that.  I do like to get focus, framing and exposure as “right” as I can, and the haptics of my cameras and lenses mean more to me than they should.  Once I’ve got my head around how my chosen camera works, and if I’m generally happy with it, I get on with it.  I can rarely remember more about the technical side of the cameras I have than what I use and the way I use them.  I’m often surprised to find a feature I’ve long forgotten about, particularly with the more complicated cameras like the SL.  Never used video on that, but there’s always a first time if I can remember how to start it up.

I was just saying that sometimes the vignetting would fool the meter, especially in patchy, high contrast light. I like to shoot the Lux lenses wide open when I can. And the reason I was so reluctant to underexpose –> I noticed a difference in the tonality achievable in the edited files from an image that was a stop or more underexposed versus one that kept the highlights close to the right side of the histogram without blowing them (discovered because I bracketed my exposures for a while). But certainly the M10M is incredibly good at recovering underexposed images.

I do miss the M10M quite a bit, though. I very much will be getting an M11M when the time comes, and the off-sensor metering solves the shutter-blade metering inconsistencies that I experienced. But I think if the shutter blade metering were my only difficulty with the M10M, I would have kept it. I sold the M10M and M10-R for a variety of reasons, most of which have been addressed with the M11 – so here I am again

Edited June 27, 2022 by hdmesa

[Kwesi]

53 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

The point of my original post was not, as it happens, to start another analysis of the benefits for some (and defence for others) of the M11; but to ask the question, what defines the M system, though all its variants down to the more complicated options in the digital M.

Hmm, I think we have to look at various seminal points in the M line to attempt an answer. for me, the M3, then the M4, followed by the M6TTL.

Then ofcourse the M9 picking up where the M7 left off, then the M10 bringing back the haptics of the M7 and its predecessors. and now the M11, the first generation M which attempts take its rightful place amongst its mirrorless peers. Although unlike its peers its space limited internally so my prediction is that the mechanical shutter will be replaced by a global shutter in the M12, perhaps allowing the inclusion of IBIS. But at its core, its the form factor, and the implicit requirement that you have a clue about the basics of exposure that defines the M.

[IkarusJohn]

Interesting, but it doesn’t answer the question - what is the core of the M camera, rather than what will the M12 be, or do you like the M11, or which is your favourite M.

For me, it’s not defined by what it has, but by what it leaves out …

[Kwesi]

unfortunately too late to edit but just to clarify that the "you" in the last sentence is a general you and not aimed at anyone in particular.

[Kwesi]

3 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Interesting, but it doesn’t answer the question - what is the core of the M camera, rather than what will the M12 be, or do you like the M11, or which is your favourite M.

For me, it’s not defined by what it has, but by what it leaves out …

I think your definition is valid.

For me the M has been and will continue to be an evolving concept with certain constant attributes at its core.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[elmars]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb ELAN:

I would love this feature for backup when traveling.  You carry a couple of these usb-c sticks and backup to them from camera every night. 

I recently did a 10-day trip with the M11 and tried to backup to my iPhone every night (via Fotos and via cable). It was slow and cumbersome when I reached 1000+ photos. 

I wish the M11 firmware had an option to copy all images to a connected usb-c stick, skipping images already on the stick so each night we can quickly back up just the new images. 

Try download to the Leica App per WiFi. It is way faster than cable.

Another way (Pixii-like): shoot only on internal memory, put an SD-card in in the evening and transfer the photos on SD.