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Core of the digital M


IkarusJohn

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19 hours ago, SrMi said:

What does that have to do with facts or knowledge?

20 hours ago, pgh said:

This is sort of a funny and strange statement. I won't try to extrapolate what it's supposed to mean too much other than to say what is probably already clear - earning money with a camera has zero to do with one's ability to assess noise performance in a sensor (nor really any assessment at all).  

It was a metaphor for the idea of - what are the functions of facts and knowledge in photography? What are they worth? How do they contribute to the value of a photograph? Not necessarily in cash, although that is a measure not to be ignored - cold hard cash is the sincerest form of flattery ;). As well being useful in setting up a life in photography, in which no time has to be wasted on earning a living in some other way.

Does world-class technical knowledge of facts alone result in world-class photographs? Is it even necessary (beyond the basics) to produce world-class photographs?

And, of course, what does it have to do with the basic function of this thread: the core character needed in a Leica M, as expressed by various users?

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My dream M would have all the M11 feautures including the advanced exposure metering, but ...

-the SD card not hidden under the battery, but in a seperate slot, eventually with a second SD card instead of internal memory

-faster electronic readout in the optional electronic shutter

-faster start up time

-movie option (without adding further buttons), keep it slim, it will allways be mainly a photographers camera

-IBIS would be nice - but only if it doesnt make the body thicker

-reduced price ;)

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2 hours ago, adan said:

It was a metaphor for the idea of - what are the functions of facts and knowledge in photography? What are they worth? How do they contribute to the value of a photograph? Not necessarily in cash, although that is a measure not to be ignored - cold hard cash is the sincerest form of flattery ;). As well being useful in setting up a life in photography, in which no time has to be wasted on earning a living in some other way.

Does world-class technical knowledge of facts alone result in world-class photographs? Is it even necessary (beyond the basics) to produce world-class photographs?

And, of course, what does it have to do with the basic function of this thread: the core character needed in a Leica M, as expressed by various users?

In principle, I agree with your post. However, your argument is a red herring, often used in photographic forums to counter debunking misinformation. Correct knowledge has never hurt any photographer.
My post #18 addressed the common unrealistic expectation that smaller resolutions or larger pixels result in better high ISO performance. Unfortunately, the only thing that improves with lower resolution is the cost.

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7 minutes ago, SrMi said:

In principle, I agree with your post. However, your argument is a red herring, often used in photographic forums to counter debunking misinformation. Correct knowledge has never hurt any photographer.
My post #18 addressed the common unrealistic expectation that smaller resolutions or larger pixels result in better high ISO performance. Unfortunately, the only thing that improves with lower resolution is the cost.

I would only add that we can never truly make the bigger-to-smaller sensor pixel size comparison because when a manufacturer moves to a higher resolution sensor with smaller pixels, much more changes than just the pixel size, including the profiles available to us in LR/C1. For example, using any M11 profiles and adjustments in C1/LR, I was able to extract more pleasing color at any ISO with the SL2-S over the M11. The M11 60mp files sized down likely match the noise handling of the SL2-S, but other factors make more of a difference to final output, IMO.

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37 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I would only add that we can never truly make the bigger-to-smaller sensor pixel size comparison because when a manufacturer moves to a higher resolution sensor with smaller pixels, much more changes than just the pixel size, including the profiles available to us in LR/C1. For example, using any M11 profiles and adjustments in C1/LR, I was able to extract more pleasing color at any ISO with the SL2-S over the M11. The M11 60mp files sized down likely match the noise handling of the SL2-S, but other factors make more of a difference to final output, IMO.

Different sensors technology, different sensor toppings, different camera firmware, different post processing profiles, etc., all contribute to the final image. Using SL2-S sensor in a digital M camera will unlikely result in the same output as with SL2-S.

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A lot of the discussion of the M11 when it was released concerned “features’ which could be set and left - cropping, variable resolution, metering etc - they were distractions, in many ways.  Once set, you could forget them.  But like the “Snapshot” mode in the M9 and JPeg settings, they do detract from the camera; in the way it is positioned in the market, if nothing more.

What goes to the heart of the new camera, for me, is the unnecessary shift to 60MP and the permanent live view.  I’m prepared to believe that it is the best (only?) sensor available.  The Z9 shutter seems to be close to a global shutter (according to Nikon and its adherents), but the M11 falls short of that.  Instead, we have a mechanical shutter which (like a leaf shutter) must close, expose and re-open again.  It’s almost like the crash of a Hasselblad 500C.  To what end?

To me, the camera is indeed a half step too far.  If they had retained the metering off the shutter, then the camera could have set in the same way as the M10, with the option of live view and electronic shutter (not something which interests me particularly).  When the technology is available, will Leica make the M with a global shutter?  My only question is Why?

Looking back, when the M9 was released there were pages and pages of complaints about the shutter noise - not as nice as the M3 etc; then M(240) was also criticised as being too loud; recordings were posted here for close comment.  I like the M10-D shutter noise, and the SL.  Not so much the TL2, but you know when a picture is taken.  I don’t think about it too much.

With a global shutter M12, will you be able to select the shutter noise (like the V8 sound coming through the speakers on some Audis)?  I think I’d go for someone famous shouting “Hey You”.

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1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

 Instead, we have a mechanical shutter which (like a leaf shutter) must close, expose and re-open again.  It’s almost like the crash of a Hasselblad 500C.  To what end?

The crash of a 500C? Serious? The M11 shutter sound is much quieter than that on my M240, let alone my M8.2. M11 vs M240 here.

 

 

 

Edited by lct
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It boils down to an old and never-ending philosophical colloquy:

"I hear you say 'Why?' Always 'Why?' You see things; and you say 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' " - the Serpent, persuading Eve to bite the apple, in George Bernard Shaw's Back to Methuselah.

"There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask 'Why?' I dream of things that never were, and ask 'Why not?' “ - Shaw as quoted by John, Robert and Edward Kennedy.

"Some people see things that are and ask, 'Why?' Some people dream of things that never were and ask, 'Why not?' Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that #$%&.“ - as extended by George Carlin.

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14 hours ago, lct said:

The crash of a 500C? Serious? The M11 shutter sound is much quieter than that on my M240, let alone my M8.2. M11 vs M240 here.

 

 

Actually, that sounds rather civilized. Leica should prohibit selling cameras to bats :lol: 

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16 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

A lot of the discussion of the M11 when it was released concerned “features’ which could be set and left - cropping, variable resolution, metering etc - they were distractions, in many ways.  Once set, you could forget them.  But like the “Snapshot” mode in the M9 and JPeg settings, they do detract from the camera; in the way it is positioned in the market, if nothing more.

What goes to the heart of the new camera, for me, is the unnecessary shift to 60MP and the permanent live view.  I’m prepared to believe that it is the best (only?) sensor available.  The Z9 shutter seems to be close to a global shutter (according to Nikon and its adherents), but the M11 falls short of that.  Instead, we have a mechanical shutter which (like a leaf shutter) must close, expose and re-open again.  It’s almost like the crash of a Hasselblad 500C.  To what end?

To me, the camera is indeed a half step too far.  If they had retained the metering off the shutter, then the camera could have set in the same way as the M10, with the option of live view and electronic shutter (not something which interests me particularly).  When the technology is available, will Leica make the M with a global shutter?  My only question is Why?

Looking back, when the M9 was released there were pages and pages of complaints about the shutter noise - not as nice as the M3 etc; then M(240) was also criticised as being too loud; recordings were posted here for close comment.  I like the M10-D shutter noise, and the SL.  Not so much the TL2, but you know when a picture is taken.  I don’t think about it too much.

With a global shutter M12, will you be able to select the shutter noise (like the V8 sound coming through the speakers on some Audis)?  I think I’d go for someone famous shouting “Hey You”.

The M11 shutter sound is not loud (obviously IMO) but I still found it disturbing/unnerving when I tried it - a 'well-muffled stapler' is the best description I can think of for sound and feel. What I find strange is why it has a triple ker-plunk-a, when just about any other mirrorless with permanent liveview (SL or CL series, for example) has only a single click shutter sound. What's going on in the M11 that has to be different?

I don't remember complaints about the M240 shutter; the M9 had the delayed recocking procedure, and the M240 was much quieter (and M10, M10P etc quieter again).   

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14 hours ago, adan said:

It boils down to an old and never-ending philosophical colloquy:

"I hear you say 'Why?' Always 'Why?' You see things; and you say 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' " - the Serpent, persuading Eve to bite the apple, in George Bernard Shaw's Back to Methuselah.

"There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask 'Why?' I dream of things that never were, and ask 'Why not?' “ - Shaw as quoted by John, Robert and Edward Kennedy.

"Some people see things that are and ask, 'Why?' Some people dream of things that never were and ask, 'Why not?' Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that #$%&.“ - as extended by George Carlin.

Down to earth guy, that Carlin…

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5 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I don't remember complaints about the M240 shutter; the M9 had the delayed recocking procedure, and the M240 was much quieter (and M10, M10P etc quieter again).   

No complaint i recall of but the M240's shutter sound appears about 6db louder than M11's. I'm not good at reading those charts though

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1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The M11 shutter sound is not loud (obviously IMO) but I still found it disturbing/unnerving when I tried it - a 'well-muffled stapler' is the best description I can think of for sound and feel. What I find strange is why it has a triple ker-plunk-a, when just about any other mirrorless with permanent liveview (SL or CL series, for example) has only a single click shutter sound. What's going on in the M11 that has to be different?

I don't remember complaints about the M240 shutter; the M9 had the delayed recocking procedure, and the M240 was much quieter (and M10, M10P etc quieter again).   

Other mirrorless cameras come with the default shutter as EFCS, electronic front curtain shutter. This allows the shutter action to be started electronically then closed by the mechanical shutter – one less actuation, so the sound feels half as long. If you set any other mirrorless camera to mechanical, the duration and number of clunks is the same. The other difference is other cameras simply have a more dampened shutter, probably due to the available space in the body (no optical rangefinder mechanism in the way). The M11 does not have EFCS. I'm not sure if that's a hardware limitation of the specific sensor design or if Leica simply doesn't want to implement it in firmware; I suspect the latter. EFCS can cause bokeh and exposure artifacts at faster shutter speeds at wide apertures, which is why Fujifilm offers a shutter mode that switches from EFCS to mechanical above ~1/500 sec. Further, they have an extended shutter mode that also switches from mechanical to electronic just like Leica does on the M11, Q cameras, and SL cameras.

What we'd want in firmware:

  • Mechanical
  • Electronic Front Curtain Shutter (EFCS)
  • Electronic
  • Hybrid – EFCS and automatically switches to mechanical at higher shutter speeds
  • Hybrid Extended – EFCS and automatically switches to mechanical at higher shutter speeds and then to electronic when the mechanical shutter reaches its limit
  • Leica's Current Hybrid – Mechanical and automatically switches to electronic when the mechanical shutter reaches its limit

EFCS is not only quieter, but it has almost no shutter shock since there is no mechanical front shutter curtain movement to jog the camera during the exposure, leading to sharper images in some cases.

Edit: In a nutshell, EFCS would allow for live metering off the sensor like the M11 has now while also giving us a shorter shutter duration and quieter sound – much like the M10-P/R has now when using the rangefinder. But this would "one-up" the M10-P/R since it would have that same shutter duration and sound in Live View.

Edited by hdmesa
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36 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Other mirrorless cameras come with the default shutter as EFCS, electronic front curtain shutter.

Can you point me to where this info is stated for the SL/SL2/SL2-S or CL/TL/TL2? I was not aware that this was the case. I have just shot the SL2-S with the lens off and a 1 sec exposure and it looks like a fully mechanical shutter to me. Sounds like it as well.

There is no EFCS setting for the SL2-S - it is mechanical, electronic or hybrid (i.e. it chooses electronic shutter automatically for fast speeds).

Edited by LocalHero1953
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