M11 sensor and cosmic radiation.

[SiOnara]

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Hi all,  

I just wanted to check something as I couldn't find much info about it apart from one small strand from the M9 days.

I'm flying from London to Berlin and want to take my M11 with me.  I remember there was a lot of talk about sensors being damaged by cosmic radiation during flights.  

Is this still a problem with newer sensors?  Was the stories originally blown out of proportions etc?

Any info would be most welcome 🙂

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by SiOnara

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[KenTanaka]

Unless you’re flying to Berlin via Blue Origin I’m sure your camera will be just fine.  After all, it’s probably already taken at least one flight, no?

[hmzimelka]

Sensors develop hot, lazy or dead pixels over their life and it's fairly common place. 

High altitude flights accelerate this due to the increased radiation but it's nothing to worry about. I doubt the M11 is any more sensitive to this than any other digital camera sensors out there and I'm certain the circuitry in sensors has become more robust rather than less robust over the years. 

If you want to be on the safer side, leave the camera powered off and don't use it on the flight. Otherwise there is not much else you can do that I'm aware of.

While there isn't a hot pixel mapping tool in the camera, I'm sure Leica will help you out if you send them a DNG file and ask them to send you an appropriate firmware to map it out. Otherwise, using RAW converters like Adobe Lightroom or ACR will automatically use a hot pixel detection algorithm to remove dead or hot pixels.

Edited June 15, 2022 by hmzimelka

[SiOnara]

1 hour ago, KenTanaka said:

Unless you’re flying to Berlin via Blue Origin I’m sure your camera will be just fine.  After all, it’s probably already taken at least one flight, no?

Unfortunately it's EasyJet 😭 So might not get there at all!

 

1 hour ago, KenTanaka said:

Unless you’re flying to Berlin via Blue Origin I’m sure your camera will be just fine.  After all, it’s probably already taken at least one flight, no?

 

[SiOnara]

35 minutes ago, hmzimelka said:

Sensors develop hot, lazy or dead pixels over their life and it's fairly common place. 

High altitude flights accelerate this due to the increased radiation but it's nothing to worry about. I doubt the M11 is any more sensitive to this than any other digital camera sensors out there and I'm certain the circuitry in sensors has become more robust rather than less robust over the years. 

If you want to be on the safer side, leave the camera powered off and don't use it on the flight. Otherwise there is not much else you can do that I'm aware of.

While there isn't a hot pixel mapping tool in the camera, I'm sure Leica will help you out if you send them a DNG file and ask them to send you an appropriate firmware to map it out. Otherwise, using RAW converters like Adobe Lightroom or ACR will automatically use a hot pixel detection algorithm to remove dead or hot pixels.

Thank you for the information.  Much appreciated.

[Gobert]

I would recommend to keep the camera upside down, thus preventing the sensitive side of the sensor being direct exposed to radiation.

[SrMi]

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56 minutes ago, Gobert said:

I would recommend to keep the camera upside down, thus preventing the sensitive side of the sensor being direct exposed to radiation.

I am missing an emoji :).

[Jared]

It was blown out of proportion even with CCD cameras like the M9. If you fly 5,000 km at typical airline altitudes, that’s roughly 30x as much radiation as your camera would receive on the ground in a 24 hour period.

So, if you fly with your camera a moderate distance once per month, you are basically are doubling its normal background exposure.

CCD’s seem to be more susceptible to damage from cosmic rays than CMOS cameras, perhaps due to differences in readout methods. CCD’s can develop column defects, not just hot pixels.

In any event, there is not a lot you can do about it aside from leaving your camera behind when you travel which seems counter productive.

I do a lot of astrophotography, often using narrow band filters that result in very dark backgrounds even with multi-minute exposures. I seem to average one or two visible cosmic ray strikes per ten minutes of exposure time. This is always happening in the background. One other form ionizing radiation you can see in astrophotography is beta particle strikes from trace amounts of radioactive iodine in most optical glass. What can one do? Avoid putting a lens on your camera?

Don’t worry about it.

- Jared

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, Gobert said:

I would recommend to keep the camera upside down, thus preventing the sensitive side of the sensor being direct exposed to radiation.

A nice idea especially combined with wrapping it in tin foil. In reality you would need a camera case made  out of concrete ten meters thick. 

[THEME]

12 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

Sensors develop hot, lazy or dead pixels over their life and it's fairly common place. 

High altitude flights accelerate this due to the increased radiation but it's nothing to worry about. I doubt the M11 is any more sensitive to this than any other digital camera sensors out there and I'm certain the circuitry in sensors has become more robust rather than less robust over the years. 

If you want to be on the safer side, leave the camera powered off and don't use it on the flight. Otherwise there is not much else you can do that I'm aware of.

While there isn't a hot pixel mapping tool in the camera, I'm sure Leica will help you out if you send them a DNG file and ask them to send you an appropriate firmware to map it out. Otherwise, using RAW converters like Adobe Lightroom or ACR will automatically use a hot pixel detection algorithm to remove dead or hot pixels.

Might it be that sensor mapping is already done automatically in the background at certain intervals?

[mikelevitt]

36 minutes ago, jaapv said:

A nice idea especially combined with wrapping it in tin foil. In reality you would need a camera case made  out of concrete ten meters thick. 

I think a hat made of tin foil is also a good idea on this flight...

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

A nice idea especially combined with wrapping it in tin foil. In reality you would need a camera case made  out of concrete ten meters thick. 

Nah. A simple hydrogen rich thin plastic shield or plexiglas would work. Airplane flight is not in outer space. Yet. 

[hdmesa]

13 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

Sensors develop hot, lazy or dead pixels over their life and it's fairly common place. 

High altitude flights accelerate this due to the increased radiation but it's nothing to worry about. I doubt the M11 is any more sensitive to this than any other digital camera sensors out there and I'm certain the circuitry in sensors has become more robust rather than less robust over the years. 

If you want to be on the safer side, leave the camera powered off and don't use it on the flight. Otherwise there is not much else you can do that I'm aware of.

While there isn't a hot pixel mapping tool in the camera, I'm sure Leica will help you out if you send them a DNG file and ask them to send you an appropriate firmware to map it out. Otherwise, using RAW converters like Adobe Lightroom or ACR will automatically use a hot pixel detection algorithm to remove dead or hot pixels.

Supposedly pixel mapping runs on all current Leicas on a 2-week interval. They did add the ability in firmware to run it manually on the Q2M after the "white pixels" issue blew up. I think the regular Q2 has it as well IIRC.

[hmzimelka]

3 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Supposedly pixel mapping runs on all current Leicas on a 2-week interval. They did add the ability in firmware to run it manually on the Q2M after the "white pixels" issue blew up. I think the regular Q2 has it as well IIRC.

Interesting. But how would they implement this two week interval?  Seems like a high interval.😮

[hmzimelka]

4 hours ago, jdlaing said:

Nah. A simple hydrogen rich thin plastic shield or plexiglas would work. Airplane flight is not in outer space. Yet. 

From what I remember, but it was a long time ago when I read this, is that in a commercial flight one needs something the equivalent of 30ft thick concrete to reduce cosmic radiation to the level found at sea level. Don't quote me 😆😆😆😆

An average smoker introduces more radioactivity into his/her body every year from cigarettes than someone staying for a year on the ISS. On average 160 000 microsieverts per year. It's all very relative.

Anyways, here is a cool online flight calculator...

https://icaro.world

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by hmzimelka

[jaapv]

Sensors get damaged by Neutrons, Those are not easily shielded.

[hdmesa]

7 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

Interesting. But how would they implement this two week interval?  Seems like a high interval.😮

Runs automatically at shutdown. Part of the firmware. 

[jankap]

From Amsterdam to Rotterdam 2 bananas already, = 0.2 uSievert.

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[hmzimelka]

33 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Runs automatically at shutdown. Part of the firmware. 

Cool, thanks for the info!

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

Sensors get damaged by Neutrons, Those are not easily shielded.

Right, thanks!

[SiOnara]

19 hours ago, jaapv said:

A nice idea especially combined with wrapping it in tin foil. In reality you would need a camera case made  out of concrete ten meters thick. 

Wrapping in tin foil sounds like a good idea. I’ll pop it in the over at 200 degrees then search with roast potatoes 😉