I SOLD my Leica M11 …… & Why

[ILC]

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I have the M10R and am a sucker for trading up but I don’t fancy the M11. I don’t like the fact that the black one is not brass and prefer the bottom plate on the M10.

I have surprised myself that I haven’t upgraded  and now realise that the feeling you get from owning a M in terms of aesthetics and materials is at least as important as the the technical specifications and how many buttons it’s got. I think Leica may have lost sight of that when designing the M11 as great as it is.

There is no right or wrong here just a matter of opinion.

 

 

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[Kwesi]

3 hours ago, ILC said:

I have the M10R and am a sucker for trading up but I don’t fancy the M11. I don’t like the fact that the black one is not brass and prefer the bottom plate on the M10.

I have surprised myself that I haven’t upgraded  and now realise that the feeling you get from owning a M in terms of aesthetics and materials is at least as important as the the technical specifications and how many buttons it’s got. I think Leica may have lost sight of that when designing the M11 as great as it is.

There is no right or wrong here just a matter of opinion.

 

 

I think eventually we realise that the more you bond with your M, the better your photos get. 

[jakontil]

3 hours ago, ILC said:

I have the M10R and am a sucker for trading up but I don’t fancy the M11. I don’t like the fact that the black one is not brass and prefer the bottom plate on the M10.

I have surprised myself that I haven’t upgraded  and now realise that the feeling you get from owning a M in terms of aesthetics and materials is at least as important as the the technical specifications and how many buttons it’s got. I think Leica may have lost sight of that when designing the M11 as great as it is.

There is no right or wrong here just a matter of opinion.

 

 

Yeap i concur and understand it very much… hence still keeping my M10r despite having the M11 in silver of course

 

16 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

I think eventually we realise that the more you bond with your M, the better your photos get. 

Weird but I thought the best camera is the one that makes you always wanna go out and shoot.. strongest bond 

[Kwesi]

2 minutes ago, jakontil said:

Weird but I thought the best camera is the one that makes you always wanna go out and shoot.. strongest bond 

We are saying the thing. I was merely referencing the M given that we are in the M forum

[lct]

3 hours ago, ILC said:

[...] the feeling you get from owning a M in terms of aesthetics and materials is at least as important as the the technical specifications and how many buttons it’s got. I think Leica may have lost sight of that when designing the M11 as great as it is.

Or Leica has learned in half a century that some M users are less interested in futility than in photography. It is less a matter of brass or buttons to them than features of the cameras 

[ILC]

Yes your probably right but for me it’s the other way round, I’ll let Nikon and Sony lead the way with features, I like the M10 because not only is it a great small camera but also simple and built like a tank.

[Kiwimac]

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The Norns tweaked their weaving yesterday during a conversation on another matter I was having with my dealer. 
 

He suddenly mentioned he was about to get a grade 10 (that’s as new, boxes etc) M11 in black with 18 months warranty remaining and was I interested. It came with the handgrip and a leather case and saved 15% on the new price. 
 

Well ok then. May as well give it a go. 

[Smudgerer]

I disliked the M11's shutter sound as much as I disliked the M9's shutter, irrespective of whether the image quality with those series of M's sort of pleased me or not. I can and do print large, up to A1+ and I have never yet found a real need in any of my images to have a sensor that's more than 24mp even though I do own and use the M10R and M10M cameras.

The M10D remains my favourite digital M with it's 24mb sensor that has a "smoothness" than other sensors with greater mp's lack. I do feel that the M10R's sensor does have a better "look" to it than the M11's however the earlier M10's 24mp sensor gives by far the best quality of image for most needs. A personal conclusion for sure and of course highly dependent on what kind of photography one likes to practice.

Film M use though is "king". You can change lenses and the "sensor' easily with the same camera body and although I did think otherwise for too long a time, there's nothing that comes close to what I want an image to look like than those I make with film.

Steven's point with the M11's always on shutter is well taken, I really did dislike that.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Smudgerer
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[Al Brown]

21 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

The M10D remains my favourite digital M with it's 24mb sensor that has a "smoothness" than other sensors with greater mp's lack.

The same sensor is also in M10 and M10-P. I agree on the praise of its TONEZ (those who are in that very special reddit group will know), but somehow for me the sweetest spot - so sweet that I never bought the M11 - is the 40mpix sensor of M10-R.

[evikne]

20 minutes ago, Steven said:

I agree with every of your points. Film M, and if you must shoot digital, M10D. 

Looks like I need to get my hands on an M10-D. Especially if there's never going to be an M11-D.

[Smudgerer]

10 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

The same sensor is also in M10 and M10-P. I agree on the praise of its TONEZ (those who are in that very special reddit group will know), but somehow for me the sweetest spot - so sweet that I never bought the M11 - is the 40mpix sensor of M10-R.

Yes, I can find some agreement with you there, but if the M10R had never happened and Leica went directly to the M11 sensor-wise I'd still be happier with the M10 series of sensors whatever version of M10 had it bolted in and for sure the shutter in the M10 series is a whole world better in my book..........Closer to the film/cloth shutter sound that I prefer with any M.

[Al Brown]

27 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

Yes, I can find some agreement with you there, but if the M10R had never happened and Leica went directly to the M11 sensor-wise I'd still be happier with the M10 series of sensors whatever version of M10 had it bolted in and for sure the shutter in the M10 series is a whole world better in my book..........Closer to the film/cloth shutter sound that I prefer with any M.

Indeed and exactly the reason I still keep a M10-P along the R in my arsenal.

[IkarusJohn]

My next digital M is going to be an X2D.

[Jon Warwick]

4 hours ago, Steven said:

That aside, I do prefer the rendering and the aesthetics of the 24MP sensor in the M10. 

I know lenses are a key influence, but I think the resolution and pixel size does something to the rendering that I notice!

I think there is a lot to be said about the 24mp for prints to (say) 24x16”, especially for close-up portraits. In hindsight, in terms of rendering, the most pleasing portraits I’ve ever got off digital is from a 24mp Leica and a gentler 50 Summicron v5. Considerably more successful than the SL2 and SL 50 APO, where everyone in the family reckoned the aesthetic looked far too “sharp” and harsh.

This is a long shot - but had anyone ever tried to see if the pixel binning on the M11 (eg, using the 18mp DNG-S) would have any influence on the rendering / aesthetics of the printed output?

 

[Chaemono]

Has anyone tried the M9 with the 50 Summilux ASPH mk2 for portraits? 

[MyLeicaWorld]

Wish I never sold my M10 .. I have the M11 for 8 months .. it’s ok but M10 was much better in many ways .. the only positive side of M11 is you can crop as much as you like while shooting with 21mm .. and that’s an advantage for me ..

[Smudgerer]

14 hours ago, Steven said:

I never enjoyed the skin tones of the M10R, neither the way it exaggerates the characteristics of older lenses. The M10P is more subtle. 

Perhaps it's simply because of the increased mp with the R and then the 11? Increased and high resolution in film or digital is rarely a good thing for skin tones, that's why Pro-mist filters have been used for decades in cinema and stills. In my experience more mp isn't necessarily a good thing, and yes I know everyone says that you can more safely crop into a frame with more mp, yes of course you can......but, easy to say for sure, why not try to frame better in the first place?

[lucy63]

2 hours ago, Smudgerer said:

Perhaps it's simply because of the increased mp with the R and then the 11? Increased and high resolution in film or digital is rarely a good thing for skin tones, that's why Pro-mist filters have been used for decades in cinema and stills. In my experience more mp isn't necessarily a good thing, and yes I know everyone says that you can more safely crop into a frame with more mp, yes of course you can......but, easy to say for sure, why not try to frame better in the first place?

Agree..For the first time using an M I'm not happy with portraits from the M10-R and 50 Lux Asph. Cropping isn't a bonus for me, I've never done it. 

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[DadDadDaddyo]

Old tech can be challenging!

I'm going to say something, hopefully briefly enough, about technique: technique that was once commonly in use, and technique that has either been forgotten or has fallen by the wayside and never been acquired in the first place by current users. 

Have you ever driven a Ford Model T? I have not, but I have ridden in one. It's not a car that would be easy for most folks to steal. The entire approach to driving is different, and by modern sensibilities, absurd. And yet, millions of people used to know how to drive them every day. The Model was good enough to launch the automotive age we know today. 

https://www.fordmodelt.net/m/how-to-drive.htm 

I learned to drive in compact, responsive European sedans with manual transmission. I still drive manual and love the craft of operating such a vehicle well. Most of my friends either no longer drive such a vehicle, or wouldn't have the first clue how to drive it well to begin with. And why should they? We have excellent multi-speed automatic transmissions today, transmissions that operate themselves with greater efficiency than most folks will (or could) ever achieve with a manual transmission. 

So now let's talk about photographers who are unhappy with the M11, specifically, those who complain that the M11 can't get an unblurred picture at any shutter speed below that which will reliably stop motion (in this case camera motion). 

It's perfectly possible to do so, and it's easy for anyone who came up using film cameras that lack Image Stabilization. It's a simple matter of technique and practice. Really.

So imagine someone saying, "I couldn't drive that horrible Volvo/Volkswagen/MG/Triumph,etc.! It's gears always grind!!"

Sorry to say, but for folks who've become accustomed to Image Stabilization, or who've never used a non-stabilized system, the transition to a body like the M11 is going to be painful indeed, for it will uncover, reveal, and mercilessly draw attention to, every single even-slightly-sloppy habit they've never had to overcome while shooting with stabilized systems. 

Unless they're willing to practice and grow, they're better off sticking with the many excellent stabilized systems that have been made just for them, systems that lower the threshold to superb photographic technical capability. 

The very same observations apply to focus (Manual vs. Auto) and exposure. Today's automated systems have attained amazing sophistication through the addition of various operating modes that can be applied to specific situations: Continuous Auto focus, Eye focus, the myriad Auto exposure modes). In fact, the expertise to switch intelligently between these modes is a signifier of acquired skill at operating these systems!

Those new skills have taken the place of the foundational skills involved in operating a still camera: holding, focus, exposure analysis and determination.

Look for videos of experienced photographers relating their first encounter with a view camera. Many are horrified! "How did the old timers ever make pictures with these???"

Ttuly, those old foundational skills are still attainable today, and hold up well even as folks who've acquired them move through this astonishing new world of automation and near-cybernetic support. 

Okay, enough. 

Think I'll grab my Toyo VX125 and my M10M and M11, jump into my six-speed Mazda MX-5, put the top down, and go for a nice photo drive!

Edited June 16, 2023 by DadDadDaddyo

[Jon Warwick]

3 hours ago, Smudgerer said:

Perhaps it's simply because of the increased mp with the R and then the 11? Increased and high resolution in film or digital is rarely a good thing for skin tones, that's why Pro-mist filters have been used for decades in cinema and stills. In my experience more mp isn't necessarily a good thing, and yes I know everyone says that you can more safely crop into a frame with more mp, yes of course you can......but, easy to say for sure, why not try to frame better in the first place?

The pro-mist and glimmerglass filters can help (I have both), and somehow have managed to get a gentle and soft look with the Tiffin filters and a LOT of post processing (added grain, blur, reducing mid-tone contrast etc) for some head-and-shoulder portraits off my GFX100. But it would have been a whole lot easier with a 24mp Leica and a gentler lens from Mandler! Still, the most pleasing rendering I’ve got for such shots remains from analogue Ms and a roll of drum-scanned film, even if the M 24mp digitals also do a really great job. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Jon Warwick