Leica M11 - Two Myths

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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1 hour ago, Tailwagger said:

Not that I wouldn't be happy if the M had IBIS, but I'd far prefer if it sported an AI system that examined the result and offered both immediate feedback as well as instant communication with social media outlets.  

TW: Hmm... interesting scene.  Click.

Camera: That was shit, try again.

TW: Click.

Camera: Nope, again, moron.

TW: Shuffle, shuffle, step, focus, click.

Camera: Strike three.  Sending failure notification to twitter, 'TW is currently in Worcester, Massachusetts proving yet again that he is a suck bag, hack of a photographer. Here's a look at the crap this guy produces. What an idiot."

 

If my camera did that I'd need an even bigger battery......

Gordon

[tashley]

On 3/17/2022 at 7:48 PM, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I think the question is wrong. Not the answer.

The question should be: With identical settings and photographer at the same OUTPUT SIZE will the M11 be more likely to produce a blurred image than the M10? The answer is NO.

Let's assume your maximum print from the M10 is 30 inches (200ppi). If you make the same size print from an M11 at 60MP the apparent blur will be the same. You only need better technique if you decide to output LARGER than you would when you had the M10. If you were to enlarge an M10 file to 60MP you'd see a similar level of blur and less detail.

Gordon

Seconded.

[cboy]

Takeaways

- Recommends 1/4x Focal length. One needs to have good technique for the M11.Thankfully all forum members have excellent technique 😉

- higher MP magnifies micro jitters (user error) /older lens defects (lens quality) when printing at a larger effective printable size (24x36? Nick was referring to a comfortable quality sized print) as a result, compared to the printable limit of the M10/240. So at say a lower 16x20 print size one will see no noticable difference compared to a M10. 

Balanced view by Nick IMO

[Dennis]

When I started into photography, I was told that the 'trick' was to use 1x focal length (FL) or more to have sharp photos handheld. Now, with the M11, some say even 4x FL... It perfectly applies the famous uncle Ben's (from Spider-Man) quote, when he said: "Great powers come with great responsibilities".. Do you want 60MP? Well, deal with that. Good luck.
Using faster SS would change my way of working, and I don't particularly like the idea. In my mind, the basic rules of photography should be the same or maybe upgraded. But not downgraded. Does it make sense what I'm saying? or just keep using 24MP which works like a charm.
Yes, we have an electronic shutter, but there is still the rolling shutter effect. Wi-Fi, Apps, LV, better battery, internal memory, etc., are all welcome. But please don't change how I have worked so far, the basic rules of photography. M11 step forward in evolution? I don't think so. It looks like we gain something, but we lose something even more essential. At least for me.

Please explain it to me, despite the resolution. For example, using an M10 + 50mm... with the following exposure, by night... 3200 iso, f4 and 1/60 ... The M11 would be (approx) 12800 iso, f4, and 1/250... Just in case. Does the M10 have more DR at 3200 than the M11 at 12800?

I would love to try the M11 at low SS... Maybe I can achieve 1x FL, it would be a win-win. I didn't try it yet, I'm just reading what people are saying...

  

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Dennis
added the last sentence

[SrMi]

43 minutes ago, Dennis said:

When I started into photography, I was told that the 'trick' was to use 1x focal length (FL) or more to have sharp photos handheld. Now, with the M11, some say even 4x FL... It perfectly applies the famous uncle Ben's (from Spider-Man) quote, when he said: "Great powers come with great responsibilities".. Do you want 60MP? Well, deal with that. Good luck.
Using faster SS would change my way of working, and I don't particularly like the idea. In my mind, the basic rules of photography should be the same or maybe upgraded. But not downgraded. Does it make sense what I'm saying? or just keep using 24MP which works like a charm.
Yes, we have an electronic shutter, but there is still the rolling shutter effect. Wi-Fi, Apps, LV, better battery, internal memory, etc., are all welcome. But please don't change how I have worked so far, the basic rules of photography. M11 step forward in evolution? I don't think so. It looks like we gain something, but we lose something even more essential. At least for me.

Please explain it to me, despite the resolution. For example, using an M10 + 50mm... with the following exposure, by night... 3200 iso, f4 and 1/60 ... The M11 would be (approx) 12800 iso, f4, and 1/250... Just in case. Does the M10 have more DR at 3200 than the M11 at 12800?

I would love to try the M11 at low SS... Maybe I can achieve 1x FL, it would be a win-win. I didn't try it yet, I'm just reading what people are saying...

 

It depends on the photographer. 
If you are OK with 1/FL for 24MP sensors, you should be OK with 1/(2*FL) for M11. If you need 1/(2*FL) for M10 then you may need 1/(4*FL), though most often 1/(3*FL) should be enough.
If you are shooting 3200 iso, f4, and 1/60 with M10, you should be fine shooting M11 at the same 3200 iso, f4, and 1/60 if using 18MP mode, or 6400 iso, f4, and 1/60 if you are shooting at 60MP mode. 
In reality, the difference between M11 and M10 is only a bit more than half a stop (ratio of the linear dimension).

[harmen]

And all that only if you wanted to print larger 

[LEGEND]

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I saw almost no micro jitter problems on my photos, when I shot 60MP with 50mm on f2 , 1/125sec and 1/(2*FL).
When I changed to 1/(1*FL), 60MP, f2 , 1/60sec I started to notice very little micro jitter but only if I look my photo 
at 100% in C1. I am sure I can do perhaps 1/30sec on 60MP but than I need to take my time and be really careful when I make 
the photo. Anyway almost all the photos are for the internet and for that you have need resolution for the upload and they 
don't usually get looked at 100%.

I shoot mostly street photography and use 36MP mode on M11 perhaps even 18MP for thet most of time.
For fashion week and cat walk shooting I use 18MP because the client does't require more.
60MP are reserved for the studio work, portraits, architecture and landscape. Lenses that I use are  Summilux M 50 Asph.
and Summicron M 35 Asph. I think lux 50 Asph. is more than good enough for the 60MP and cron 35 Asph.
for 36MP and lower but I shoot with him also on 60MP. No problems there...

I love my M11 and again I started to appreciate shooting with the rangefinder and slowing down. 
Last 5 years I used SL, SL2 and than SL2-S. They are also excellent for all sort of shooting scenarios. 
With L lens , 24-90 and M mount but last couple of years I noticed that most of my photos are shot with manual M lenses.
That is because I enjoy using manual approach to photography on everything, manual focusing and manual setting of exposure.
I missed the Leica M rangefinder experience,  slowing down, thinking before making photo and I wanted the challenge of using the 
Leica M rangefinder. SL mirrorless cameras make me “lazy“ because with them it is so easy to make a photo, with AF or manual focus
lens. Setting the exposure on them is easier because of EVF and especially histogram that you can see. I had turned him on and 
also exposer preview all the time for that. After some time I get used to make exposer reading with them almost exclusively.
Now I find my self in stupid situation that I do that on M11 with LCD screen. When I want to get the exposer reading I simply turn the 
LCD screen and look at the histogram with the exposer reading turned on. For that I only need a second or two but still...
 
What I would like to see in M11 if the Leica can bring that in with FW update is to have the exposer time presented inside the viewfinder.
Like they have when you use aperture priority but now also when you use rangefinder M mode. That way together with two arrows and the
dot in the middle you will know what shutter time is set when you look through the viewfinder all the time. No need to take the camera of the eye
for that.  Uf course with a possibility to turn it off in the menu. I got used to get presented every relevant info when I have shoot with SL cameras.

That is my take on this... 
Sorry for the long post or if I missed the topic... Delete it if necessary, no problem with me...  

Nikola

 

[aristotle]

8 hours ago, Dennis said:

Please explain it to me, despite the resolution. For example, using an M10 + 50mm... with the following exposure, by night... 3200 iso, f4 and 1/60 ... The M11 would be (approx) 12800 iso, f4, and 1/250... Just in case. Does the M10 have more DR at 3200 than the M11 at 12800?

Actually, no.  As has been said here in various ways, the M11, for the situation that you cite, would be 3200 iso, f4 and 1/60.  There is no difference.  The origin of the "1/f" rule assumed that the sensor (film originally) was 35mm, and that the resultant image would be printed no larger than 8x10 and viewed no closer than 12" by a person with 20/20 vision. Motion blur is a function of how much you are enlarging the displayed image relative to the sensor size (not sensor resolution).   If you display images from the M10 and M11 at the same size, the amount of motion induced blur is identical.  The increased resolution of the M11 means that you are somewhat less limited from a resolution standpoint in terms of enlargement potential...meaning that if you intend to enlarge beyond what you would have from an M10 then you need to take that into account when you take the shot.  But only if you plan to print no bigger than 8x10 (ish) and having people with good eyesight view it up close.  And all of this of course modulated by the fact that the original rule of thumb can be improved upon (or not) by handholding technique.

[Herr Barnack]

On 3/17/2022 at 4:45 PM, FlashGordonPhotography said:

...1. You knew that the M has no IBIS going in. Maybe it'll turn up in a new model but you can't wish it into the M11 and Leica can't do it with a firmware update. So there's little point complaining that it's not there. I like IBIS. I use it all the time on my other cameras. But my M11 doesn't have it and I need to work with that limitation or pick up a different camera. All we can do is find creative ways to get sharp image (or not). If you treat it more like a challenge and less like a chore it's going to be more fun...

4. I wish Nick has mentioned this. We're all different. You need to do your own testing based on your own shooting style and technique. We're not the same. I handhold 60MP at 1/f and print to A1. I know this because I went out and checked. I set my auto ISO to 2xf to be sure, to be sure. I can hold an M10 at 1/2 f and print to A3+. I can hold an M 1 stop slower with a Thumbie attached. These are my limitations. Yours will be yours. Learn them. Accept them. Move on.

4A. When you see someone on the internet telling you that they can handhold the M10R at lower speeds than the M11 that's them, not you. You will be different.

5. You can probably get better than you are now. Practice. Also adding a Thumbie or a grip can add stops to how steady you can hold an M.

6. Grain is good. Nothing wrong with a high ISO. Blur can also be good. Good images do not have to *perfect* Sometimes they're just perfectly boring...

8. Tripods are fun. But only if you get a good one.

9. Critical sharpness is not as important to anyone else as it is to you. Your family doesn't care. So chill and take photos. Your kids are probably using their iPhone AI to change their faces in to cats! It's not a high bar...

10. You all know the M11 has variable resolution in camera, right?

Gordon

We are 100% singing off the same sheet of music.

BUT:  If Leica builds and sells a billion M11 cameras, there will be only around 5000 users worldwide who are happy with the M11.  The rest will lose their minds and scream about any and all of the above and claim that the M11 is a useless electronic turd. 

JMHO but having IBIS or not doesn't make or break a camera. 

Adding a Thumbie and a properly designed grip to any M camera helps significantly in terms of holding it steady.

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[archiea]

On 3/15/2022 at 4:58 PM, SrMi said:

It is a well known fact that the minimum handholding shutter speed depends on the photographer.

…and the drink in his other hand! 

[jaapv]

48 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Adding a Thumbie and a properly designed grip to any M camera helps significantly in terms of holding it steady.

And holding it properly - and not jabbing the shutter release. 

An ancient post from the M FAQ thread, but still valid:

 

[TheProf]

On 3/20/2022 at 4:36 AM, aristotle said:

 If you display images from the M10 and M11 at the same size, the amount of motion induced blur is identical. 

This point is correct, and has been made countless times on the forum--but seems to me a red herring.  Why would you buy an M11, or any camera with 60+ megapixels if you don't intend to print larger? That's why I bought a Sony a7R IV--to make 30x40 inch prints. Can't think of any other reason to opt for a 60+ sensor. Am I missing something? (Wouldn't be the first time). 

[IkarusJohn]

11 minutes ago, TheProf said:

This point is correct, and has been made countless times on the forum--but seems to me a red herring.  Why would you buy an M11, or any camera with 60+ megapixels if you don't intend to print larger? That's why I bought a Sony a7R IV--to make 30x40 inch prints. Can't think of any other reason to opt for a 60+ sensor. Am I missing something? (Wouldn't be the first time). 

Well, perhaps because you have an armful of M lenses, love the system, the M paradigm and you’re up for a new camera?  You’re along for the ride …

[Jeff S]

32 minutes ago, TheProf said:

Why would you buy an M11, or any camera with 60+ megapixels if you don't intend to print larger? That's why I bought a Sony a7R IV--to make 30x40 inch prints. Can't think of any other reason to opt for a 60+ sensor. Am I missing something? (Wouldn't be the first time). 

Or because you want more crop flexibility.  Or because other new camera features appeal.  Or just because you can.

Jeff

[Tailwagger]

14 minutes ago, TheProf said:

This point is correct, and has been made countless times on the forum--but seems to me a red herring.  Why would you buy an M11, or any camera with 60+ megapixels if you don't intend to print larger? 

Perhaps there's another way of looking at.  If you accept that at lower shutter speeds your M11 is at worst the equivalent of a 24 MPx M10, but in more reasonable light with higher shutter speeds you wind up with nearly triple the number of clean, sharp, pixels why wouldn't you opt for the greater flexibility on offer?  The added acuity isn't merely useful for printing. It's also useful for limiting the number of lens you carry and on occasion for truly extreme cropping. 

The M, WATE/MATE excepted, is all about primes.  The lack of zooms, means that all too often one can one can run into fluid situations which with a convention camera with zoom could handle things, but with an M one either has to move quickly or change lenses and hope the opportunity will remain around long enough.  The added pixels make it possible to have a chance in such encounters if, say, you currently have a 35mm mounted, but needed a 75mm right now. Over in another thread, I showed a 90mm shot of a robin, not a subject I normally would be seeking out, that I wound up cropping to a few MPx and scaling back up to 18Mpx, something that I never could have achieved with an M10. Now I have no intention of making a habit of such things, but its nice to know that theres a safety there.

One never sets out with an intention to use the wrong lens, but it's certainly not unusual to be in the right place at the right moment with the wrong optic. In unanticipated situations, the added pixels give you a fighting chance to get the shot. Not something that's useful for 95% of the images I happen to make, but invaluable for those rarer moments when there was no other alternative short of not bothering to press the shutter release. 

[aristotle]

8 hours ago, TheProf said:

This point is correct, and has been made countless times on the forum--but seems to me a red herring.  Why would you buy an M11, or any camera with 60+ megapixels if you don't intend to print larger? That's why I bought a Sony a7R IV--to make 30x40 inch prints. Can't think of any other reason to opt for a 60+ sensor. Am I missing something? (Wouldn't be the first time). 

Because for those few times where you want to print a wall-sized pic of some neat landscape you can.  Just use a tripod or otherwise control exposure on those occasions so that you can take advantage of the extra resolution.  If you are indeed making 30x40 inch prints on a regular basis then regardless of the resolution of the sensor, you are someone that needs to limit motion blur more than the average photographer.

The point is being made "countless" times though because there seems to be a perception that it is the resolution, and not the print size, that is dictating the need to use higher shutter speeds.

[pgk]

2 hours ago, aristotle said:

 If you are indeed making 30x40 inch prints on a regular basis then regardless of the resolution of the sensor, you are someone that needs to limit motion blur more than the average photographer.

Anyone actually making such prints on a regular basis has a choice of other cameras which might prove more suitable for such a purpose. This whole idea of needing huge MPixels is the real myth and in the vast majority of cases is total overkill.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

9 hours ago, pgk said:

Anyone actually making such prints on a regular basis has a choice of other cameras which might prove more suitable for such a purpose. This whole idea of needing huge MPixels is the real myth and in the vast majority of cases is total overkill.

I have those other cameras. And use them often.

What the M11 brings to the table is a unique blend of resolution, long exposure capability, top end lenses and a tiny system size. My X1D and GFX100S are both better cameras on a tripod but the M11 is vastly smaller as a kit when hiking any kind of distances.

I have, and will continue to, carry my larger kits over decent distances (up to 15-20kms) when photography is the prime objective. But an M11 kit is one I can have with me pretty much all the time. A 16-135mm kit is a few kilos and replacing my 90mm and 135 with an 80-200R is only slightly more. A modest X1D or GFX kit with decent coverage is 6+ kilos. An M11 kit with the same coverage is less than half.

The closest, but still bigger is the Nikon Z7II. Sony cameras are small but only a couple of their very small lenses are as good as Leicas.

The M11 also has the advantage that when I don't need the highest resolution I have two other resolutions to choose from with no downsides. It's like having an M10P and M10R in the bag in one body.

Gordon 

[harmen]

While I have less need for large amounts of pixels from my M, I thoroughly appreciate them in my Z.  This Z7 only comes with me when I go below the surface.  The ability to crop makes it possible to get great macro shots from the 105mm macro lens without additional (heavy) super macro converters in front of the port.  Apologies to go slightly off topic.

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

9 hours ago, harmen said:

While I have less need for large amounts of pixels from my M, I thoroughly appreciate them in my Z.  This Z7 only comes with me when I go below the surface.  The ability to crop makes it possible to get great macro shots from the 105mm macro lens without additional (heavy) super macro converters in front of the port.  Apologies to go slightly off topic.

I got the Z7 to see what was going on on the dark side. I hadn't owned a Nikon digital body. It's a really good camera. Thoroughly undeserving of the bashing it got on release. And the compact zooms (14-24 and 24-70) are really really good. As are the little 1.8 primes. I also adapted a F 70-200 f4 which worked like a native lens. Great ergonomics. Excellent sensor.

Not so keen on the skin tones. Also still don't like the menus. Do like the CF Express cards.

If you really like super macro, you can adapt the Canon MPE65 to the SL2. 1-5x macro and all functions on the lens work. I use both the Novoflex and Sigma auto adaptors with no problems. Not sure you can house it though for UW. I haven't looked in a while. I'm still happy using my EM1 mk2 for my UW shooting.

Gordon