Purchase an M11 or an M10-R…?

[PostTenebras]

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I also thought that the M11 was superior to the M10-R and thus sold the latter shortly after having purchased the former.

A couple of months later, I found myself repurchasing a used M10-R which I intend to keep.

The M10-R represents the classic digital M at its best, whereas the M11 feels like a truly modern digital M. 

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[lct]

23 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

It’s the best IMO. 

You mean for you i guess. I like my symmetrical lenses too much and my expectations re live view come from another planet so to speak so i won't consider an M10 at any price but it's just me .

 

[Chimichurri]

1 minute ago, lct said:

so i won't consider an M10

I wouldn’t either. But the M10R’s sensor is special. 

[lct]

Just now, Chimichurri said:

I wouldn’t either. But the M10R’s sensor is special. 

Would it be a BSI sensor? I believe it is not but i may be wrong.

[Alberti]

I now see good images from the M11. It must have been hard in the beginning to get them. 
The M10R soes have some corner smearing with several lenses - the M11 is supposed to be better in that aspect. 

[Chimichurri]

3 minutes ago, lct said:

Would it be a BSI sensor? I believe it is not but i may be wrong.

The M11 is the first BSI Leica M. I had a BSI sensor on my Fuji. Didn’t make a bit of difference 🤷🏻‍♂️ … 

[Chimichurri]

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3 minutes ago, Alberti said:

The M10R soes have some corner smearing with several lenses - the M11 is supposed to be better in that aspect. 

Don’t know. Maybe we can compare with the most used Leica M lenses. Like a 35/50 summicron. 

I would have to assume the M11 sensor is better in some aspects. It better be! 😀

Edited November 11, 2022 by Chimichurri

[lct]

Just now, Chimichurri said:

The M11 is the first BSI Leica M. I had a BSI sensor on my Fuji. Didn’t make a bit of difference 🤷🏻‍♂️ … 

I take it that you have little experience with symmetrical lenses then . Never mind they are just for oldies like me .

[Jeff S]

5 minutes ago, lct said:

Would it be a BSI sensor? I believe it is not but i may be wrong.

It’s based on the S3 sensor architecture.  Compared to the M10, besides 40MP vs 24 MP, Stefan Daniel said the improvements include dual gain architecture, 10% more light gathering/photons as a result of moving sensor electronics, as well as modified/improved pixel shape.  
 

The M10 Monochrom shares the sensor design, without Bayer array.  I find the two cameras to be a terrific combination, having bought the M10-R just prior to M11 release, fully anticipating M11 teething issues, just as with each prior new M platform.

Jeff

[Chimichurri]

On 3/13/2022 at 11:55 PM, mzbe said:

What I thought I was getting when I first ordered the M11 (disclaimer: still waiting to receive it):

1. Improved IQ: I have the M10-P, didn't buy M10-R because "not enough improvement"; was hoping to get more pixels, better DR, higher color resolution, better low light performance (vs. both M10s)
2. more "travel proof": Carrying a Leica charger, multiple batteries, repeated issues with rangefinder adjustment (first two after 20-30 days of active camera use each), lighter (was going to buy black M11 first, changed my mind later)
3. better workflow: A faster, working connection to my iPhone and iPad, with more reliable and faster pairing protocol
4. more shooting options: Again don't have M11 yet, but will explore tethered shooting (to my iPhone) e.g. to put the camera on a Platypod or table top tripod and use it as a convenient "disconnected viewfinder"
5. improved Visoflex: I am getting older, my eyes are failing, I love to shoot my Noctilux wide open ...
6. better handling: I use a tripod maybe a quarter of the time; the new Leica grip with built-in Arca Swiss plate looks like a great simplification.
7. A unique path that exists really only with Leica M to standardize on shared handling, batteries, etc. once I buy an M11-M (I will likely buy a monochrome at some point in the next years, changing to M11 body now "future proofs" that "one system" option a bit)

 

What seems to be the case after some people looked more closely at actual production samples:

1. M11 IQ comparison with M10-R doesn't seem to indicate a clear winner: There is improved effective resolution on center pixels with M11, less noise with long exposures, slightly better exposure recovery. Worse than M10-R: Low light performance (see Mathphotographer YouTube), worse effective corner resolution (at least with the M-Summicron APO 35mm, see reidreviews.com, paid site), worse AWB (magenta is your friend), more pronounced purple fringes (seems to be BSI sensor related, not just M11).

2. The selling points of the overall improved ergonomics of the M11 still strongly apply. One change vs. when I first ordered the M11: I am still not convinced that the black M11 will not show much more wear and tear in the long run. I would like to preserve resell value if and when I decide to upgrade to a future M camera. Ergo changed order to silver, still waiting (another downside of silver, black seems to be more readily available).

3. Outch. "M11 bugs". Hope this will eventually work as seamlessly as I hope. Leica doesn't have the best track record, never fixed all the issues with M10-P, but at least with M11 seems to pay more attention/greater commitment (e.g. obtaining Apple certification). Also a downer on the workflow are current Capture One 22 image quality issues (missing pixels) with M11 - this could potentially be improved, but cannot really predict when and if. At least Lightroom Classic has this figured out extremely well and delivers the highest possible pixel-level quality from M11 DNGs that I expect can be achieved.

4. (same as 3. - needs to work reliably to be useful)

5.-7. no change in opinion so far re:better VF

 

In summary:

Coming from M10-P (unlike you) this jump will cost me about $5k to upgrade the body and accessories[. This is borderline foolish, no matter how much disposable income one has. I am doing it because I expect once global travel resumes to get to many places/opportunities to make unique memories with my camera that I don't know I would ever visit again. The M11 is not necessary for this, but I do expect more "keeper images": Ability to crop (1.), more use because more convenient (2.), more opportunities to review and reshoot if necessary (3.), new angles (4.), higher precision for critical framing and sharpness (5.), more tripod shots (6.).

... so despite not all my hopes and expectations coming true, I haven't cancelled my order and looking forward to the day I receive my M11.

Nothing more to add after this! 

[lct]

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

It’s based on the S3 sensor architecture.  Compared to the M10, besides 40MP vs 24 MP, Stefan Daniel said the improvements include dual gain architecture, 10% more light gathering/photons as a result of moving sensor electronics, as well as modified/improved pixel shape.  
The M10 Monochrom shares the sensor design, without Bayer array.  I find the two cameras to be a terrific combination, having bought the M10-R just prior to M11 release, fully anticipating M11 teething issues, just as with each prior new M platform.

Jeff

May i ask if you've used symmetrical lenses with your M10-R?

[Chimichurri]

1 minute ago, lct said:

May i ask if you've used symmetrical lenses with your M10-R?

😅

[lct]

1 minute ago, Chimichurri said:

😅

What do you mean?

[Jeff S]

4 minutes ago, lct said:

May i ask if you've used symmetrical lenses with your M10-R?

I use a 28 Summicron ASPH v.1, 35 Summicron ASPH v.1, 35 Summilux ASPH v.1 and 50 Summilux ASPH.  All perform well on both cameras as well as on my MM1.  I sold a 35 Summaron f/2.8, but not due to any optical performance deficiencies.

Jeff

[lct]

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

I use a 28 Summicron ASPH v.1, 35 Summicron ASPH v.1, 35 Summilux ASPH v.1 and 50 Summilux ASPH.  All perform well on both cameras as well as on my MM1.  I sold a 35 Summaron f/2.8, but not due to any optical performance deficiencies.

I meant lenses like Super-Angulon 21/3.4, Skopar 21/4, Heliar 15/4.5 etc. All lenses producing red edges on my M240 and none on my BSI sensor cameras (A7r2 mod, M11).

[Jeff S]

4 minutes ago, lct said:

I meant lenses like Super-Angulon 21/3.4, Skopar 21/4, Heliar 15/4.5 etc. All lenses producing red edges on my M240 and none on my BSI sensor cameras (A7r2 mod, M11).

I know… decided to list the ones I use.

Jeff

Edited November 11, 2022 by Jeff S

[lct]

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

I know… decided to list the ones I use.

I have no red edge issues with those lenses on my M240, let alone the M11.

[Jeff S]

11 minutes ago, lct said:

I have no red edge issues with those lenses on my M240, let alone the M11.

Exactly.  Nor did I.

Jeff

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[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

I use a 28 Summicron ASPH v.1, 35 Summicron ASPH v.1, 35 Summilux ASPH v.1 and 50 Summilux ASPH.  All perform well on both cameras as well as on my MM1.  I sold a 35 Summaron f/2.8, but not due to any optical performance deficiencies.

Jeff

Should have listed 35 Summilux ASPH as v.2 (FLE). Happy to keep it.

Jeff

[jakontil]

4 hours ago, Chimichurri said:

Nothing more to add after this! 

Having both systems at the same time, may i share my findings here,

not a true upgrade over the m10-R, except for its battery and usb c port, images produced are identical though somehow i prefer the M11 looks, after applying the same presets i have used my entire life with, the M11 adds crisps to my liking especially outdoor, bright sunny day, but still the m10r just a tad behind in terms of favourable, which i can still live with

if one coming from other than m10-r i believe it’s a significant upgrade, but im obsessed with my black paint, hence here I’m, plus my unit, though solid most of the times, give some instability which rocks my confidence big time

What i love most bout the m11 wasnt its image, but rather its ability to charge with usb, a slightly faster wireless transfer, but not robust enough with its bugs, may be next iteration