Leica APS-C -- No more!

[charlesphoto99]

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46 minutes ago, jaapv said:

 On top of that, ever tried to take a photograph that requires a 600 mm lens with a smartphone? 

Ever tried that with a Leica M? Didn't think so.

I think the gist is that smartphones will supersede dedicated cameras for general purpose photography, if they haven't already. Of course there will always be specialty cameras and lenses. The deciding factor will always be whether one actually prints (large esp) or not. 

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jaapv]

Oh yes, I did plenty of safari wildlife with Leica M, with the Telyt 400-V and 560-V on M4 and M9, Noflexar 400 -T  (+ 2x extender that makes  about 1000 mm on the M8) and I even wrote an article about the Monochrom 1 and amongst others travel shots in Africa and included some wildlife work with  280 and 400 Telyt-V lenses.

 

https://the.me/henri-in-africa-the-leica-monochrom-as-a-travel-camera/

Don't suppose things without checking.. . 

[gotium]

On 6/1/2022 at 4:13 AM, Simone_DF said:

At what price should Leica sell the SL line? Because even though the price of the SL2/SL2s is high, it's 1-2 generations behind, look at the Canon R5 or the Z9 or any other flagship model from other mirrorless brands.

And the Q? I can get a Ricoh GRIII for less than 1000€, or a Fuji X100V for about 1500€. (and indeed I sold my Q2 long time ago and got a GRIII!)

People that buy Leica don't buy it for the price, because it's always been a bad bargain. People buy Leica for other reasons.

Have never tried Fuji because of the wormy artifacts reported in OOF areas. Is that no longer a real issue?

I now have both Ricohs and find them excellent, but really wish they had an EVF. IQ is certainly better than the CL with the TL 18. 

[frame-it]

6 minutes ago, gotium said:

wormy artifacts reported in OOF areas

if processed incorrectly in lightroom/C1..

if doing some crazy sharpening and clarity, one can see those same wormy artifacts in leica dng files as well.

 

[Mr.Prime]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

You overlook the obvious flaw in the argument. It assumes that smartphones will progess and ILCs will remain stagnant. Rather unlikely. On top of that, ever tried to take a photograph that requires a 600 mm lens with a smartphone? 

Perhaps you are right, after all it should always be possible to outperform a smart phone when you have less severe constraints on size weight and power. BUT it matters not, as the performance of the smart phone reaches a level that is good enough for an ever increasing share of the market people will shun the SLR until it’s no longer sensible for any business to invest in their design and production. The SLR will then be stagnant. We’re nearly there already with the shift to mirrorless, in fact it wasn’t that brave of Sony to take advantage of this fact to gain a cute marketing victory for their cellphone technology.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Mr.Prime

[Boojay]

12 hours ago, jaapv said:

Oh yes, I did plenty of safari wildlife with Leica M, with the Telyt 400-V and 560-V on M4 and M9, Noflexar 400 -T  (+ 2x extender that makes  about 1000 mm on the M8) and I even wrote an article about the Monochrom 1 and amongst others travel shots in Africa and included some wildlife work with  280 and 400 Telyt-V lenses.

 

https://the.me/henri-in-africa-the-leica-monochrom-as-a-travel-camera/

Don't suppose things without checking.. . 

Oh that's brilliant... love those b&w's Jaap, very strong first image, thanks for the link.

[nicci78]

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12 hours ago, BernardC said:

OK, I get it.

Panasonic and Sigma are Leica's entry level now. That's one of the advantages of the alliance. You can get into the system with an S5 kit, which isn't more expensive than a Canon/Nikon/Sony kit, and work your way up as life progresses.

Of course, we would all like it if Leica sold inexpensive cameras, while maintaining quality, but that's not going to happen.

You see the problem ? Now you have to shop around. Buying Panasonic or Sigma instead means 0€ for Leica. 
Isn’t that stupid to abandoned the 2000-2500€ price point ? 
 

Full frame lenses are expensive too. Even Sigma’s APS-C lenses are significantly cheaper than their full frame. 
Same for TL lenses which are 1/2 or 1/3 the price of SL ones. 

[frame-it]

6 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Buying Panasonic or Sigma instead means 0€ for Leica. 

 

unless they [leica] get huge licensing fees

[Simone_DF]

18 hours ago, lct said:

Only question is if compact size has become a matter to prioritize according to Stefan Daniel's wording quoted below. 

« If we launch a new product we get feedback on what they (customers) like or dislike, what should be kept and what should be improved but we have also to prioritize because few customers maybe have a certain wish we cannot fulfill because there is only very few demand for that and there are wishes almost everybody has and then this has to be kind of prioritized at higher »

Just look at the Panasonic side of things. The S line started to sell more bodies only when the smaller S5 was introduced. I know I won't buy a heavy bulky SL3 and I'd rather get a S5II instead. But I'm sure Leica got the memo and that we'll see a S5 sized equivalent.

[lct]

32 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Just look at the Panasonic side of things. The S line started to sell more bodies only when the smaller S5 was introduced. I know I won't buy a heavy bulky SL3 and I'd rather get a S5II instead. But I'm sure Leica got the memo and that we'll see a S5 sized equivalent.

To me the SL was a mistake size wise but Leica is Leica. They have acknowledged that L lenses should be more compact but they said nothing about the bodies, at least officially. All hope is not lost anyway...

[jaapv]

47 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Just look at the Panasonic side of things. The S line started to sell more bodies only when the smaller S5 was introduced. I know I won't buy a heavy bulky SL3 and I'd rather get a S5II instead. But I'm sure Leica got the memo and that we'll see a S5 sized equivalent.

The S5 is compact for a FF mirrorless -I really. like it- , but it is still a lumpy brick and heavy compared to the CL, not an alternative.

[Simone_DF]

29 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The S5 is compact for a FF mirrorless -I really. like it- , but it is still a lumpy brick and heavy compared to the CL, not an alternative.

Of course. But at least it's in line with other FF mirrorless like the A7IV etc. and a step in the right direction. 

[lct]

29 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The S5 is compact for a FF mirrorless -I really. like it- , but it is still a lumpy brick and heavy compared to the CL, not an alternative.

The alternative should be FF anyway so i would not bet on a body as compact as the CL. Now between the S5 and the Sigma FPL there is a significant margin. I suspect the SL3 could be closer to the former but i have no info about that.

[rob_w]

2 hours ago, Boojay said:

Oh that's brilliant... love those b&w's Jaap, very strong first image, thanks for the link.

I love them too. And it’s a great article. But Jaap is the exception that proves the rule. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by rob_w

[rob_w]

The Sony A7s are lighter than the Panny S5.  And Sony have an A7C (C=compact) which is v close to the CL in form factor despite being FF.  Certainly not a heavy lump.  I just wish Leica had continued with Sony/Minolta but that choice is long gone.

I doubt Leica would shrink FF to S5/A7 sizes but who knows?

Edited June 4, 2022 by rob_w

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

You see the problem ? Now you have to shop around. Buying Panasonic or Sigma instead means 0€ for Leica. 
Isn’t that stupid to abandoned the 2000-2500€ price point ? 
 

Full frame lenses are expensive too. Even Sigma’s APS-C lenses are significantly cheaper than their full frame. 
Same for TL lenses which are 1/2 or 1/3 the price of SL ones. 

You need to look at the big picture.

 

Buying a Sony or Canon means 0€ for Leica. Buying a Panasonic S5 means future sales for Leica. There is more to running a business than quarterly profits, and Leica is one of the few camera companies that has the luxury of looking at the long term.

One the other hand, sometimes you need to think about right now. Why would Leica continue to sell an unpopular APS-C system? It was never very popular, it probably never paid for itself, it's not part of the core product line, and customers are asking for full frame.

Should they never retire any product lines? How about the Leicina Super-8 movie camera? Those were unpopular for a few decades, but maybe they should have stuck at it?

[adan]

8 hours ago, nicci78 said:

You see the problem ? Now you have to shop around. Buying Panasonic or Sigma instead means 0€ for Leica. 
Isn’t that stupid to abandoned the 2000-2500€ price point ? 

6 hours ago, Enrique Santa said:

Anybody that invest in Leica yesterday or today and even tomorrow don't want to take their pictures in a smart thing phone...we need some mojo.

I always understood "investing" to mean spending money with the intent that the investment pays back the expense - plus a lot more. Otherwise, it is not a good investment, it's just "spending money." Not that there is anything wrong with that, if one can do it with equanimity.

Seems to me the critical distinction here is between people (regardless of any other characteristic) for whom photography takes money out of their bank accounts - and those for whom photography puts money into their bank accounts - a true investment, that actually pays off. 

It's amazing how much depositing checks earned by photography takes the sting out of "camera price points." A very soothing activity.

I get the feeling that if more people on the forum tried that, it might reduce the irritation and constant squabbling here.

Edited June 4, 2022 by adan

[Enrique Santa]

3 hours ago, adan said:

I always understood "investing" to mean spending money with the intent that the investment pays back the expense - plus a lot more. Otherwise, it is not a good investment, it's just "spending money." Not that there is anything wrong with that, if one can do it with equanimity.

Seems to me the critical distinction here is between people (regardless of any other characteristic) for whom photography takes money out of their bank accounts - and those for whom photography puts money into their bank accounts - a true investment, that actually pays off. 

It's amazing how much depositing checks earned by photography takes the sting out of "camera price points." A very soothing activity.

I get the feeling that if more people on the forum tried that, it might reduce the irritation and constant squabbling here.

Well you are right, I invest in Leica since Im an architect and use my cam for profesional work for asset valuation as RICS and of course I use it to take pictures as a hobbist. But sincerely I don't know what is the point with "irritation". Do you really think my post reveal some irritation wiht Leica??. NO simply deception is much better , My CL is a simple thing, one more and I can live very well without it, when a new cam will be needed I will buy and invest in a new system.

 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Enrique Santa

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[elambo]

A recent post with a pic of a Leica competitor's camera, illustrated as *valid* context amidst a Leica camera thread, is admonished as off-topic, but this clearly off-topic sidetrip is allowed because a mod is participating? Rules here appear to have a duality that I don't understand.

[jaapv]

47 minutes ago, Enrique Santa said:

No , I use a normal CL . Please tell me what are your intentions posting a thing like this...an extrange sens of humor perhaps?

No, to point out that special editions are not specific to M cameras.

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