Leica APS-C -- No more!

[jaapv]

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8 hours ago, oldwino said:

Ummm, no.

Would Leica discontinue a product that was selling well?
Regardless of how we here on this Leica-centric forum think the CL was selling, and regardless of how many of us bought one (myself included)…again, would Leica discontinue a product that was selling well?

Is that clearer to you?

No. Because we don’t know the reasoning behind the alleged discontinuation. Nor do we know Leica’s sales target for specific cameras or the number actually sold.   
I can think of a number of alternative reasons:

1. Sony may have raised the price of Leica-dedicated APS-C chips to a level that makes it impossible to sell APS Leicas at a profit.

2  Due to supply chain disruption and staff shortages Leica must reduce the number of product lines. 

3. The producer of the lenses and/or CLs in Japan may have ceased production and there is no acceptable replacement. APS-C cannot survive on the niche TL line alone. 

4. The limitation of the service period suggests a parts supply problem  

I am sure there may be even more possible reasons or combinations thereof.

If the problem were solely on the sales side we might expect some kind of marketing drive. 
 

[Viv]

Sighs and lamentations.

I will continue to use my CL and its three lenses as I do now - as a backup and travel camera.

I have four cameras. The CL is not my favourite.

Who knows what the future holds?

[Louis]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

No. Because we don’t know the reasoning behind the alleged discontinuation. Nor do we know Leica’s sales target for specific cameras or the number actually sold.   
I can think of a number of alternative reasons:

1. Sony may have raised the price of Leica-dedicated APS-C chips to a level that makes it impossible to sell APS Leicas at a profit.

2  Due to supply chain disruption and staff shortages Leica must reduce the number of product lines. 

3. The producer of the lenses and/or CLs in Japan may have ceased production and there is no acceptable replacement. APS-C cannot survive on the niche TL line alone. 

4. The limitation of the service period suggests a parts supply problem  

I am sure there may be even more possible reasons or combinations thereof.

If the problem were solely on the sales side we might expect some kind of marketing drive. 
 

The reason I heard from Wetzlar was the smartphones taking over the market!…. I was not convinced! I have both but use my smartphone very rarely; it only serves me for a quick shot to include in a text for a friend or family about something. Hundreds of the people I see every day in the streets with a smartphone don’t even know what APSC is and the competition between a camera and a smartphone is very silly in my view! I don’t, either, think that a photographer would prefer a smartphone to a camera. 

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Louis

[frame-it]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

4. The limitation of the service period suggests a parts supply problem  

this point makes a lot of sense, especially as i just saw in the news that apple wants to move its remaining factories in china to Vietnam and India.

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, Louis said:

The reason I heard from Wetzlar was the smartphones taking over the market!…. I was not convinced! I have both but use my smartphone very rarely; it only serves me for a quick shot to include in a text for a friend or family about something. Hundreds of the people I see every day in the streets with a smartphone don’t even know what APSC is and the competition between a camera and a smartphone is very silly in my view! I don’t, either, think that a photographer would prefer a smartphone to a camera. 

 

That excuse is at the same level as "Covid19".... Anyway, I use my smartphone for night shots - no camera can match it.

[IkarusJohn]

8 hours ago, Louis said:

The reason I heard from Wetzlar was the smartphones taking over the market!…. I was not convinced! I have both but use my smartphone very rarely; it only serves me for a quick shot to include in a text for a friend or family about something. Hundreds of the people I see every day in the streets with a smartphone don’t even know what APSC is and the competition between a camera and a smartphone is very silly in my view! I don’t, either, think that a photographer would prefer a smartphone to a camera. 

 

Anything that takes a picture is viable, and for most purposes, most phones now take excellent pictures.  Not my cup of Darjeeling, to be sure - but for most, more than good enough.  The images are better.than the compact film and early digital cameras people had in their handbags back in the day, and your phone is always with you and you can post drectly to social media.

Unless you’re interested in the niceties of photography, like aperture and shutter speed etc (most people taking pictures aren’t), why would you carry a separate camera when modern cellphones are so good?  The camera owner is in a relatively small market of enthusiast.  I’m not saying it’s right, but the marketing and competition is in more pixels, BSI, IBIS and just about every other acronym you care to add.  In the paradigm of faster, more and better, the smaller formats of micro 4/3 and APS-C look like they’re being squeezed.

Not sure I agree with where the M is going in that context, but that is another discussion.  I do worry that if Leica is ditching APS-C, that leaves the Q (a fine idea that could be expanded), the M11 (which seems headed in an odd direction) and variants to come, the SL and the S (what’s happened to that system?).  The next year or two are going to be interesting at Leica.  I hope they haven’t lost their way.  I’m reassured that they know their sales figures, production costs and market, and they know what they’re doing better than any of us here …

[Simone_DF]

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11 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

the smaller formats of micro 4/3 and APS-C look like they’re being squeezed.

Then why on earth Sony, Fuji, Canon, Nikon, Ricoh are all pushing new APS-C cameras?

Also in the last few months we've seen new m4/3 cameras and a new Panasonic Leica DG 9mm F1.7 ASPH lens has just been released.

[nicci78]

Because CIPA figures for 2021 : 88% in volume is APS-C + m4/3 and 75% of revenue is APS-C + m4/3

Impressive for so called dead formats. Full frame is the niche market actually. 

[jaapv]

13 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Anything that takes a picture is viable, and for most purposes, most phones now take excellent pictures.  Not my cup of Darjeeling, to be sure - but for most, more than good enough.  The images are better.than the compact film and early digital cameras people had in their handbags back in the day, and your phone is always with you and you can post drectly to social media.

Unless you’re interested in the niceties of photography, like aperture and shutter speed etc (most people taking pictures aren’t), why would you carry a separate camera when modern cellphones are so good?  The camera owner is in a relatively small market of enthusiast.  I’m not saying it’s right, but the marketing and competition is in more pixels, BSI, IBIS and just about every other acronym you care to add.  In the paradigm of faster, more and better, the smaller formats of micro 4/3 and APS-C look like they’re being squeezed.

Not sure I agree with where the M is going in that context, but that is another discussion.  I do worry that if Leica is ditching APS-C, that leaves the Q (a fine idea that could be expanded), the M11 (which seems headed in an odd direction) and variants to come, the SL and the S (what’s happened to that system?).  The next year or two are going to be interesting at Leica.  I hope they haven’t lost their way.  I’m reassured that they know their sales figures, production costs and market, and they know what they’re doing better than any of us here …

The thing that worries me most is not the discussion about sensor formats. I find that fairly irrelevant for photographic results, at least in the range between 1" and ff sensors. Most enthused results are a placebo effect IMO. 
The thing is that Leica is. abandoning the basic philosophy of the brand : "small camera - great results" The CL is the camera that comes closest. to a digital version of the Barnacks. 
Now they are striving to be competitive in a. technology-driven rat race, driven by consumerism. More megapixels (why - has anybody seen a better photograph caused by an increase in megapixels?), bigger cameras, bloated lenses, surrealistic prices, all in the name of technical perfection that is only visible in review graphs, not in the intrinsic quality of the resulting photographs.

This way they are setting themselves up to be gobbled up by one of the big boys, as the prestige brand name.

[wlaidlaw]

100% agree with you Andy. Probably one of the best photos I ever took, was of traditional costumed Provençal dancers, in the main square of Tourtour. It was taken with a 10MP APS sensor M8. The local art and photo galerie printed for me to 24" x 36", using the Epson Rip Engine. There is no noticeable pixelation until you get within a couple of inches. Now would it be technically better with my M10-R, yes but would anyone notice, I doubt it. 

The thing that really annoys me is Leica's lack of staying power. When they bring out an expensive new class of camera, the APS C in L mount, which practically requires people to buy expensive new lenses, you don't expect Leica to walk away from it after just one generation. I am not optimistic about the longevity of my CL, given it had to be replaced twice under warranty and if it breaks, I am then left with three lenses (18-56, 18 pancake and 11-23), for which no new camera is available. I don't accept the argument that they can be used on full frame L mount cameras. I no longer travel with my SL because I find it too heavy and the thought of humping it around to use with crippled crop lenses, does not appeal at all. 

Wilson

[lct]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

The thing is that Leica is. abandoning the basic philosophy of the brand : "small camera - great results" The CL is the camera that comes closest. to a digital version of the Barnacks.

Good example. 1954. Barnack cameras were still at the Leitz catalog when the M3 was launched but they did not remain there for more than ten years. No room enough for too expensive compact cameras with interchangeable lenses at Leica. 1973. Launch of the film CL. Both M and CL cameras were at the Leitz catalog since 1974 but the CL disappeared from it 2 years later. There was still no room enough for two expensive compact cameras or types of cameras with interchangeable lenses at Leica and it is the same nowadays. What is new with digital is that the same compact camera can now cover both FF and APS-C formats so that the room for an expensive APS-C alone digital camera is not only reduced but zeroed now. Does not mean that the APS-C format is dead but that expensive APS-C alone cameras have no future at Leica. Imagine Panasonic launching an affordable APS-C camera, it could perhaps sell with a red dot but it would be another Panaleica not a true, meaning expensive, Leica. Sad perhaps but nothing new under the sun.

Edited May 23, 2022 by lct

[wlaidlaw]

It would not worry me one iota, if the badge on a replacement APS-C L mount camera was Panasonic. It is generally only when there is a choice, I would opt for Leica but since it appears that they have abandoned us APS-C lens owners, Panasonic would be very acceptable to me. I use a Panasonic L mount lens on my SL (70-200). 

Wilson

[jaapv]

The problem is that Panasonic is heavily invested in MFT and is struggling with FF  APS does not quite fit in. 

[jaapv]

That Is why Leica is of interest to them, I should think. Might dropping APS be grooming? 

[lct]

No idea but imagine a sort of FPL camera with built-in EVF. Just imagination. The L alliance member involved could claim that it did not drop APS which is now covered together with FF by the same camera.

[Simone_DF]

31 minutes ago, lct said:

No idea but imagine a sort of FPL camera with built-in EVF. Just imagination. The L alliance member involved could claim that it did not drop APS which is now covered together with FF by the same camera.

I'd love a FP with integrated EVF. 

I bet there's already a prototype or two at Sigma's headquarters, since the Foveon version will be mostly aimed at still photographers and the modularity of the FP2 is more dedicated to video

[Kim Dahl]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

The thing that worries me most is not the discussion about sensor formats. I find that fairly irrelevant for photographic results, at least in the range between 1" and ff sensors. Most enthused results are a placebo effect IMO. 
The thing is that Leica is. abandoning the basic philosophy of the brand : "small camera - great results" The CL is the camera that comes closest. to a digital version of the Barnacks. 
Now they are striving to be competitive in a. technology-driven rat race, driven by consumerism. More megapixels (why - has anybody seen a better photograph caused by an increase in megapixels?), bigger cameras, bloated lenses, surrealistic prices, all in the name of technical perfection that is only visible in review graphs, not in the intrinsic quality of the resulting photographs.

This way they are setting themselves up to be gobbled up by one of the big boys, as the prestige brand name.

Yes - That is exactly what the problem is.  Small and good.  This is where Leica can do something extra.  If leica thinks they will be able to compete with Canon Nikon and Sony.  then they have already lost.  Picture quality is not that big of a difference today.  The lead that Leica once had is no longer there.  
I have become a happy Canon user.   If you as a Leica user have not tried eye focusing - then give it a try.  You are not going back to Leica so ..
Leica has after my best bid just killed their best bid on is small quality camera !!

 What do they want now?  Will they make a small FF / SL and then we (customers) have to wait for new small f2.8 lenses that fit in size.
 

I'm not going to wait any longer for Leica.  To then be turned their backs and they are never finished before the camera goes out.  Not again.

 It's completely wrong as they have done with CL.

[jankap]

Would a Sigma APS-H Foveon sensor in fp dimension in L-mount make it? OK not all lenses could be used (see the comments of jaap). As a kind of M8.

Edited May 23, 2022 by jankap

[IkarusJohn]

4 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Then why on earth Sony, Fuji, Canon, Nikon, Ricoh are all pushing new APS-C cameras?

Also in the last few months we've seen new m4/3 cameras and a new Panasonic Leica DG 9mm F1.7 ASPH lens has just been released.

No idea.  

Surely, the more relevant question is,  why would Leica compete in that market?  Those makers will have their own reasons for what they make and try to sell, but their pricing is quite different from Leica’s - Leica has never been cheap.  If every other camera maker is pushing APS-C, that leaves little room for Leica, and m4/3 really has nowhere to go.

Leica licensing the use of its name for other people’s lenses, and rebadging other people’s cameras is not really the point. 

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

The thing that worries me most is not the discussion about sensor formats. I find that fairly irrelevant for photographic results, at least in the range between 1" and ff sensors. Most enthused results are a placebo effect IMO. 
The thing is that Leica is. abandoning the basic philosophy of the brand : "small camera - great results" The CL is the camera that comes closest. to a digital version of the Barnacks. 
Now they are striving to be competitive in a. technology-driven rat race, driven by consumerism. More megapixels (why - has anybody seen a better photograph caused by an increase in megapixels?), bigger cameras, bloated lenses, surrealistic prices, all in the name of technical perfection that is only visible in review graphs, not in the intrinsic quality of the resulting photographs.

This way they are setting themselves up to be gobbled up by one of the big boys, as the prestige brand name.

If you look at the formats Leica has strayed into - APS-H (the M8 was the only camera in that format); APS-C (X series, dead; CL/TL2 apparently dead); S (stalled?), one thing becomes apparent - Leica has been very slow to release a full lens line-up that people really say they want; even their own lens roadmap.  One of the more repeated complaints here about the L series and the S series has been the snail’s pace at which lenses have been released.

With the M series, we have 60 years of lenses to use.  The SL lenses have been the best Leica can produce, with no compromise to size (unlike the M lenses) and they’re a different fish (AF, and software controlled), and they have been slow.  Why do you think that is?

You may find formats irrelevant, but I’m not so sure Leica does, nor do I think this is irrelevant to the market.  If you look across all formats, Sinar, through medium format, full frame, APS-C down to 1” (which Leica is dabbling with with its phone), actually full frame is compact, with the biggest range of lenses and (I’m guessing) the best combination of size and quality.  IMO.  I’m not sure of the relevance of the Barnack camera - the true successor to that is the M …

Not sure about “philosophy of the brand”.  I thought that was “camera for life” …. I agree on megapixels - the M11 looks a bit desperate to me, but let’s not go there. I suspect Leica has come to the conclusion there is no place for a “prestige brand” in the smaller formats.  Its compact cameras are re-badged.  The CL/TL2 were not …

Anyway, I guess we’ll never know.  I didn’t make the decision, and I have zero inside information.  Like everyone else here, I’m just trying to make sense of what appears to be their decision.  I thought they were going to do this years ago, and I was unconvinced by their expression of commitment to APS-C when the T was originally released.  I just thought it was a nice camera and still do, so I bought one.  Two actually.

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16 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Surely, the more relevant question is,  why would Leica compete in that market?  Those makers will have their own reasons for what they make and try to sell, but their pricing is quite different from Leica’s - Leica has never been cheap.  

which explains dumping APS-C and possibly the S Line.

im guessing Leica will make a 60mp Q-L FF camera with a 30mp APSC mode for the TL lenses, and maybe, just maybe a mirrorless S in a new body similar to an SL2 body