Leica APS-C -- No more!

[jaapv]

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16 minutes ago, Louis said:

They may; they may not, but I find the suggestion of having a thread for those who left Leica very interesting. We may learn from their experience which has been the main purpose of this thread and our discussions.

I don’t know in what part of LUF and under what topic, but I support this idea.

Maybe “life after APSC”?  

Many of us have a number of Leicas and other brands. I don’t think that there is much to it  Just use the cameras that fit the moment. 

[Mr.Prime]

1 hour ago, Le Chef said:

Maybe Leica will surprise us with a new product that encourages buyers/owners to come back. Maybe Leica will surprise us and commit to this future line rather than abandon it and owners in the process.

That requires a leap of faith that I see no credibility to support. Yes, there will be new exciting products but longevity will be known only with hindsight.

[Le Chef]

6 minutes ago, Mr.Prime said:

That requires a leap of faith that I see no credibility to support. Yes, there will be new exciting products but longevity will be known only with hindsight.

I agree. It’s only based on my looking at their track record.

[Louis]

7 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

I agree. It’s only based on my looking at their track record.

Longevity is the key word.

They may certainly come with some interesting systems; but why should I spend my money when I am not sure how long that system would last!?

The only more or less continuation is with M system. But  what if I am not interested in that price and in MF - only camera!

No wonder why people say Leica is for rich and  retired doctors or lawyers! lol

 

[gotium]

6 hours ago, rob_w said:

Sadly I wont be able to post any results here, but I will be dropping by to see how everyone is getting on and because I love seeing the photos you take.

 

The deed is done.  For the first time in 43 years there is no Leica in the house.  It feels rather strange!

 

Where do we get to see your results then? Cause I’d like to know how it goes! And as you have said yourself, it takes a year to know a lens. 

I am a serial try-to-switch-to-Sony offender and have failed largely because:

1. I can’t get colors, mostly skin, to look right, no matter how much I fiddle with profiles and preferences, and 

2. My friends and family think the kits are ugly - they literally groan when I take photos of them. I’ve had more success with the a7c here, but only with dimuitive lenses.

Edited April 19, 2022 by gotium

[rob_w]

Yes, I think it will take a year or something like that. So far, no problem with colours or AWB, but we shall see.  I’m sure to stay in touch — been here too long to just walk away.   And happy to post some honest updates once the kit has been seriously tested under different conditions. 

[Stuart Richardson]

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1 hour ago, Le Chef said:

What you’re saying was a true 20 years ago, but today you have to think differently in an era of social media. Taking care of your customers is one very effective tactic towards future proofing your bottom line.

Maybe, but I think it is not as effective as discontinuing unprofitable lines and raising prices as much as market models will possibly allow, selling special editions that have almost no added cost to the company, but huge added profits, creating artificial scarcity to drive demand, giving preferential access to "friendly" influencers/customers who provide free word of mouth advertising etc etc. Any bad blood Leica is engendering with ending the APS-C line is probably largely confined to people in this thread. As far as I am aware there is no widespread outcry or major social media campaign calling for it to come back. I am not sure if it has even been covered in what is left of the photo-world journalistic press. You might see that if they discontinued the M line...you saw inklings of it with the R line, but they did not change their stance. Most Leica users might not even notice, as most Leica users are apparently using the M and Q cameras. Mostly I think it is greeted with a yawn by most of the photo world. Please don't take that as callousness to users who love the CL, however. I feel your pain. I loved the S system, but if the troubles of the CL system were greeted with a yawn by the photo world, those of the S would be lucky to be met with a twitch of the eye. It may be a big deal to the 10 or 20 S users out there (yes I know there are more), but in general hardly anyone cares...probably more people would feel schadenfreude about it than feel upset about it.

[oldwino]

I'm starting to sense a bit of acceptance here...the healing process has begun! 😉

[Le Chef]

25 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Maybe, but I think it is not as effective as discontinuing unprofitable lines

My criticism is that customer care is a preventative tactic that builds sustains loyalty. There were no signs that Leica did this, so no surprise the CL died. If you starve the dog you can’t expect it to be loyal and run around for you.

[lct]

1 hour ago, oldwino said:

I'm starting to sense a bit of acceptance here...the healing process has begun! 😉

So soon?. Time to awake the thread. APS-only cameras are a thing of the past. A dead end Leica won't enter anymore hopefully .

[ropo54]

2 hours ago, Le Chef said:

If you starve the dog you can’t expect it to be loyal and run around for you.

(Not sure that's the case!)

I digress . . . with a cute little parable.

Question: "How do you find out who loves you more,  your wife or your dog?  (Not suggesting anyone try this, either).

Answer: Take both out to your car, lock them in the trunk for an hour, come back and open the trunk;  see which one is happier to see you!"

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by ropo54

[wlaidlaw]

I don't really see why APS-C cameras should be a dead end. Micro 4/3 with an even smaller sensor seems to be carrying on with both Olympus and Panasonic, if in a somewhat limited way. I never see myself using a phone as a camera and I would never again buy a camera without a viewfinder, optical or electronic. For us older folk, a smaller camera than is physically possible with a full frame sensor, makes a lot of sense, as a travel camera if not an every day one. Before the CL came along, I used an Olympus EP-2 and then an EP-5, both with the accessory viewfinders, as my lightweight travel camera, usually along with either an M7 or R9 for film. The CL just ticked every box and the only thing I missed on the CL coming from the Olympus cameras was IBIS but that was compensated by substantially better image quality on the CL. I bought three quite expensive Leica lenses for this format in the expectation of being able to use these on future upgraded version of a Leica APS-C camera and that is why I would feel let down by Leica, if there is no successor to the CL. 

Wilson

[nicci78]

I think that it is a mistake to give up APS-C. Leica is copying everybody else (except Fujifilm) 

Canon, Sony, Nikon and Panasonic are trying hard to upsell everybody to full frame. But they are doing it the wrong way : by artificially cripple their crop sensor offerings. Like no update for years, etc… 

Fujifilm success is just due to the fact that they are the only left making quality APS-C !! People took noticed and vote with their wallet. 

Even Panasonic came back to its senses by releasing new m4/3 !! They just realised that they won’t beat the big 3 at this 24x36 game.

OM Systems is not dead at all. 

Ricoh Pentax found their niches. And have cult following for some of their product. Especially in APS-C format. 
 

m4/3 being small has many benefits : like being the first to benefits from smartphones tech : like Sony quad pixels for new OM-D. Which is a 80MP camera used permanently at 20MP ! It binned 4 pixels together for dual axis AF purpose. 

 

[lct]

Modern FF cameras can be compact and work in crop mode if needed nowadays. I would not invest (think loose) a single cent in any APS-only camera if i were a camera maker but it's just me .

[Kim Dahl]

14 hours ago, jaapv said:

The customers 

But back to what?  APSC is no longer available (opdate camera) if you want a small Leica.  I have said it so many times - SL (in the form it has now) is no alternative.  But you are right that if something new smaller SL comes along then it can be.  And like me I still have my TL2 mm and my M. But I have no opportunity to follow the development in AF other than to go to another brand.  It is (in my opinion) too uncertain to buy oneself more into the SL world.  When Leica does not bother to answer what their solution is to solve the problem.

[Kim Dahl]

13 hours ago, rob_w said:

Yes, I think it will take a year or something like that. So far, no problem with colours or AWB, but we shall see.  I’m sure to stay in touch — been here too long to just walk away.   And happy to post some honest updates once the kit has been seriously tested under different conditions. 

 I've even switched to Canon and I'm impressed with how fast AF is.  How nice it is with a fold-out LCD.  How good quality the lenses are.  How "cheap" it is.  How many options I now have with long telephoto (will try nature and bird photography).  Yes and I can go on.  But one thing is for sure - no one can replace my Leica MD.  But APSC and SL2 can easily replace other brand.  I have no problems with colors or cormorant images.  Canon is exactly on the same level as Leica.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Kim Dahl

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, Kim Dahl said:

But back to what?  APSC is no longer available (opdate camera) if you want a small Leica.  I have said it so many times - SL (in the form it has now) is no alternative.  But you are right that if something new smaller SL comes along then it can be.  And like me I still have my TL2 mm and my M. But I have no opportunity to follow the development in AF other than to go to another brand.  It is (in my opinion) too uncertain to buy oneself more into the SL world.  When Leica does not bother to answer what their solution is to solve the problem.

This assumes that APS C or one is some kind of criterion for taking photographs. I use a camera for the results and those are virtually indistinguishable. I carry my Panasonic S for long lenses, my M cameras for what they are and my CL for its compactness and convenience What size sensor is inside does not interest me in the least. 

[LACANYONHIKER]

18 hours ago, jaapv said:

Many of us have a number of Leicas and other brands. I don’t think that there is much to it  Just use the cameras that fit the moment. 

Well said Jaapv.  I'll add... use the camera that makes you feel good and makes you want to TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS!

Leica, Fuji, Sony, Nikon, iPhone, Kodak Instamatic, whatever!  Find it, do it, shoot it.  

[Louis]

We are talking here about Leica APSC, CL; and those who will leave Leica forums to shoot with other cameras. Their experience could be interesting for a few of us, without saying that they would be miss here!

Nothing to do with people who have several cameras, etc, etc,…

BTW, we have a couple of folks who are often happy to make us list of their photographic gear and tell us how good and professional they are. lol

Edited April 20, 2022 by Louis

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[Kim Dahl]

The same here Louis. - I would like to know where people who have now given up on Leica (APSC) - what do you do and yours experiences with new cameras ? 
I know well my new Canon R3 is not a replacement for my Leica TL2.  I did not intend to leave Leica country if there were opportunities.  But I do not think there is right now. 
I have a Leica M for something else and the price for a new one is too high for me to stay with longer.  Maybe it will be replaced with a Q when (maby) the next model comes with flip screen 😊
Are there any who have bought the Canon R3-5-6 and live with the size?
Going over to Fuji? 
Or buy in a small Nikon Z6-7?  Sony?

 … But most importantly can you live with it?
 

I'm not mad at Leica.  (Maybe a little 😊)
I am disappointed.  !! 

It will be interesting to hear many answers.  What have you done? Or thinking of doing?  The best positive Leica greetings.