Le Chef Posted April 13, 2022 Share #741 Posted April 13, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 7 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said: If Leica APS-C was a viable / profitable product, i.e., if potential sales could justify further product development, Leica Camera AG would likely pump some investment and resources into the format. We cannot expect Leica Camera AG to continue subsidising the relatively few Leica APS-C users / potential users. Leica Camera AG is a business ... not a charity. The Leica future is full frame ... not APS-C. If you want a decent 'L-mount' APS-C platform, consider acquiring e.g. a Panasonic S1R (20.68mp in APS-C mode) ... and a bigger camera bag ... or wait for the next L mount FF, large MP sensor compact. The CL was a solution for all those who repeatedly criticised the TL / TL2's lack of a built-in EVF; Leica likely bent over backwards to provide the CL and please the Leica APS-C fraternity ... but the sales did not / do not justify continued development & production. Please do not blame Leica ... they had to utilise the 'add on' and 'built-in' EVFs available at the time ... those EVF's were not designed by Leica ... they were / are made by EPSON. Modern digital cameras' parts are sourced from a multitude of third parties ... they are not made 'in house' by Leica. And also consider the possibility that those third party suppliers might require orders of many thousands more components than Leica can place with them ... to justify their production. Also consider the effect of Covid on camera production and sales during the last two years. I will say it again. The blame for poor sales lies at the feet of Leica’s management and no one else. You can always blame someone else but it’s down to the management of the company to respond to challenges. I have spent 35 years advising Fortune 100 companies in Europe and USA on marketing, branding and communication, and there is always something that can be done to improve performance. Leica are either inept, don’t have the ability to reach out and hire the right resources, or they’re lazy. The problem they faced was fixable and can be seen all the way back to the X-line before making a hash of the T/TL/TL2/CL line. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Le Chef Posted April 13, 2022 Share #742 Posted April 13, 2022 5 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said: "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result ... happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result ... misery. " But some of you still expect Leica Camera AG to risk throwing itself to the wolves to produce loss making products ... which if produced could jeopardize development of its other successful product lines. Few sensible people operate their credit cards with permanent debit balances incurring expensive monthly interest payments ... But some of you suggest / expect Leica Camera AG could / should operate at a loss to provide your hardware? From where would Leica 'make up' the $£€ shortfall? It’s really a shame you don’t understand how business works. You shift the blame from the company to somewhere else when in reality the company owns their mistakes and should be capable of fixing them. Management is not a passive game of simply watching the world go by and blaming others when it goes wrong. You have to play an active role in creating your own destiny. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted April 13, 2022 Share #743 Posted April 13, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Le Chef said: It’s really a shame you don’t understand how business works. You shift the blame from the company to somewhere else when in reality the company owns their mistakes and should be capable of fixing them. Management is not a passive game of simply watching the world go by and blaming others when it goes wrong. You have to play an active role in creating your own destiny. You assume too much. And your comment: 'Leica are either inept, don’t have the ability to reach out and hire the right resources, or they’re lazy' ... is daft to the extreme. Edited April 13, 2022 by dkCambridgeshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 13, 2022 Share #744 Posted April 13, 2022 45 minutes ago, Mr.Prime said: I'm not sure what Seiko has to do with anything, I never mentioned Seiko, I said that Rolex was doing a good job managing their product lines with products spanning a wide range of pricing. Thing is, Leica were selling the CL and lenses for a relatively high price, not at 'Fuji' prices but lower than their other cameras and so I would have expected they calculated that this price was correct for the marketplace and also profitable for themselves. p.s. I had to look up the Air King, not exactly a low cost watch. What do you wear these days ? I just wanted to say that Seiko is somewhat for Rolex what Fuji is for Leica. Would be ridiculous to ask Rolex to sell their watches at Seiko prices the same way as it sounds ridiculous. to expect Leica to sell the CL at similar prices as a Fuji APS-C cameras. BTW the Air King was an entry Rolex when i got mine last century. Got a couple of Oysterdate and Datejust since then but is is another story. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted April 13, 2022 Author Share #745 Posted April 13, 2022 18 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said: You assume too much. And your comment: 'Leica are either inept, don’t have the ability to reach out and hire the right resources, or they’re lazy' ... is daft to the extreme. I saw your post in people gallery, and now I understand why you are defending Leica with such vigor! 🤗📷😅🤣 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Chef Posted April 13, 2022 Share #746 Posted April 13, 2022 22 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said: You assume too much. And your comment: 'Leica are either inept, don’t have the ability to reach out and hire the right resources, or they’re lazy' ... is daft to the extreme. “Daft” is your “Can’t complain, mustn’t grumble” approach to management. I wish you every success with your approach. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_w Posted April 13, 2022 Share #747 Posted April 13, 2022 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) 5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said: I suspect most CL/T buyers were NOT attracted by APS-C, but by the small size and low weight - what Leica has been known for since it was founded. Suggesting the user base should switch to a S1R is simply ludicrous. Leica may well have painted itself into a corner by making their small camera APS-C. Personally I would be happy with a small full frame equivalent*, but of course that would mean relegating APS-C lenses to a narrow niche of use which many would not like - not least because of the cost of new lenses. (Mind you, most camera manufacturers have painted themselves into a corner, by offering large, heavy, user-hostile cameras. Most of their market has shifted to smartphones.) What's your source of info on sales of different Leica models? (Or is it "Leica is discontinuing the CL, therefore sales are low"?) * Please don't suggest a M11 as an alternative - different gestalt, different usage, different functionality. The Sony A7C (notwithstanding the poor EVF) shows that its possible to be in the right ballpark. I think this is a great summary, really. I just want a modestly sized camera with excellent lenses, like the R series, the M series, and the CL/TL series I have used in the past. I now find myself in a situation where Leica just do not make a camera I want to buy. Not for me/us to lecture the company or judge them for that. Just sad to end an enjoyable relationship after 4 decades. Even my wife shed a tear at the thought of no Leica in the household or being used at family events, or passed on to children or nephews/nieces. Edited April 13, 2022 by rob_w 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted April 13, 2022 Share #748 Posted April 13, 2022 From a purely empirical POV, when travelling and not at TLS AGM's (yes I was there), I see more TL, Q and CL Leicas than M, SL or S (never seen one in the wild), so I doubt that they were that poor sellers. I know quite a few folk who are not Leica aficionados like me, who bought a CL as their first and so far only Leica. I would imagine they are not too enamoured of being deprived of an upgrade/update path just like I am. The SL series is far too heavy for an elderly crinkly like me to hump around on travels. Mine is only ever used as a studio camera. Wilson 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted April 13, 2022 Share #749 Posted April 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, rob_w said: I think this is a great summary, really. I just want a modestly sized camera with excellent lenses, like the R series, the M series, and the CL/TL series I have used in the past. I now find myself in a situation where Leica just do not make a camera I want to buy. Not for me/us to lecture the company or judge them for that. Just sad to end an enjoyable relationship after 4 decades. Even my wife shed a tear at the thought of no Leica in the household or being used at family events, or passed on to children or nephews/nieces. Most digital cameras are hardly family heirlooms ... they're disposables with built-in obsolescence ... unless adapted to suitable external batteries ... or the original batteries re-celled. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted April 13, 2022 Share #750 Posted April 13, 2022 16 minutes ago, rob_w said: I think this is a great summary, really. I just want a modestly sized camera with excellent lenses, like the R series, the M series, and the CL/TL series I have used in the past. I now find myself in a situation where Leica just do not make a camera I want to buy. I think your CL is working still, I suppose. So what's up, let those GAS patients moan. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 13, 2022 Share #751 Posted April 13, 2022 23 minutes ago, rob_w said: I think this is a great summary, really. I just want a modestly sized camera with excellent lenses, like the R series, the M series, and the CL/TL series I have used in the past. I now find myself in a situation where Leica just do not make a camera I want to buy. Not for me/us to lecture the company or judge them for that. Just sad to end an enjoyable relationship after 4 decades. Even my wife shed a tear at the thought of no Leica in the household or being used at family events, or passed on to children or nephews/nieces. I am almost exactly like you, with CL, M and R gear. Only difference is my wife will not shed a tear at the thought of no Leica in the household for the simple reason that i will keep my CL, contrary to you... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 13, 2022 Share #752 Posted April 13, 2022 Has anybody thought of the simple explanation that Leica might be waiting for a suitable APS-C sensor with more than 24 MP? 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 13, 2022 Share #753 Posted April 13, 2022 11 minutes ago, jaapv said: Has anybody thought of the simple explanation that Leica might be waiting for a suitable APS-C sensor with more than 24 MP? Such sensor already exists in the Pixii i believe. I would be glad to get the same in a CL+ with IBIS and a SL-like EVF at a Fuji price needless to say . 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boojay Posted April 13, 2022 Share #754 Posted April 13, 2022 (edited) 19 minutes ago, jaapv said: Has anybody thought of the simple explanation that Leica might be waiting for a suitable APS-C sensor with more than 24 MP? Good point! Is it just Fuji XT-4 (26) and Canon's Eos m6II (32) ? Ahh just seen LCT's post and the Pixii. Any others? Edited April 13, 2022 by Boojay Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Chef Posted April 13, 2022 Share #755 Posted April 13, 2022 25 minutes ago, jaapv said: Has anybody thought of the simple explanation that Leica might be waiting for a suitable APS-C sensor with more than 24 MP? It may be the case. But if Leica had the intent to do this they could have signaled this to dealers and owners that they were working towards a "next generation" solution. That's all it would have taken 6 months ago, rather than the deafening silence and unanswered questions after an insider spilled the beans that the CL line was no more. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 13, 2022 Share #756 Posted April 13, 2022 Assuming that those are available to other brands. Canon almost certainly not, Fuji likely not. Pixii? I don't know. The main third-party supplier is Sony, and for Leica possibly Panasonic. 26 or 32 would not be much of an improvement over the present 24 in any case. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 13, 2022 Share #757 Posted April 13, 2022 1 minute ago, Le Chef said: It may be the case. But if Leica had the intent to do this they could have signaled this to dealers and owners that they were working towards a "next generation" solution. That's all it would have taken 6 months ago, rather than the deafening silence and unanswered questions after an insider spilled the beans that the CL line was no more. If Leica has a timeline themselves... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Chef Posted April 13, 2022 Share #758 Posted April 13, 2022 You don't even need a fixed timeline. You just need to seed intent. It could be a conversation with someone at Leica talking about the search for next generation sensors for both FF and APSC and you have the basis for maintaining both dealer and buyer/owner interest. Big blockbuster movies often have tease campaigns that start up to 2 years before launch. The car industry regular teases with spy camera scoops they engineered on purpose, or concept models that reveal next generation product. Look at the supposed Q3 show on Leica News and Rumors: how much conversation has that garnered without Leica confirming or denying. It's not hard to do if you're intentional. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 13, 2022 Share #759 Posted April 13, 2022 Well, a nice task for LR then. I'm sure Leica won't comment on this matter either 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted April 13, 2022 Share #760 Posted April 13, 2022 The 24MP of the current sensor is no issue for me. The absence of IBIS is. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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