Problems getting sharp images by 60MP

[raizans]

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A 60mp sensor means that the M11 has to be treated like a medium or large format film camera to get max resolution. This isn’t what 35mm rangefinders were designed for, so there’s a bit of a clash between form factor and digital technology (and makes Triple Resolution essential). The EVF-M will or should resolve this tension.

[lct]

1 hour ago, raizans said:

A 60mp sensor means that the M11 has to be treated like a medium or large format film camera to get max resolution. This isn’t what 35mm rangefinders were designed for, so there’s a bit of a clash between form factor and digital technology (and makes Triple Resolution essential). The EVF-M will or should resolve this tension.

Sure but the EVF-M would need IBIS then. In which case the M12 would hardly sell sans IBIS i guess. The Real Leica Man with his super steady hands  could still switch IBIS off or keep the M11 anyway .

[raizans]

The Real Leica Man prefers his rangefinder camera without IBIS.

[TrickyMrT]

The Real Leica Man prefers a rangefinder camera which can be used handheld at lower shutter-speed 😅

How the rangefinder camera is constructed, is less important for the "Real Leica Man" as long the camera delivers lovely photos.

 

 

[SrMi]

6 hours ago, Hanno said:

One comment is that shutter shock may be more of an issue at lower shutter speeds, and in that case moving to the electronic shutter will entirely remedy it.

Assuming that at lower shutter speed, presumably one is not shooting fast moving targets.

I ran M11 tests at lower shutter speeds and did not notice any sharpness degradation due to the mechanical shutter. With a longer lens (R-180mm), I saw a slight improvement with the electronic shutter compared to the mechanical shutter of M10-R and M11. 

[SrMi]

59 minutes ago, raizans said:

The Real Leica Man prefers his rangefinder camera without IBIS.

And without other gimmicks like the built-in rangefinder and TTL 🤣.

[pgk]

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35 minutes ago, TrickyMrT said:

The Real Leica Man prefers a rangefinder camera which can be used handheld at lower shutter-speed 😅

Clearly I'm not a Real Leica Man because I own and use tripods .......

[lct]

•

Edited February 20, 2022 by lct

[LocalHero1953]

So, after seven pages of discussion and testing, it looks like a fair summary would be:

If you use the best technique and you have good health and steady hands, then you won't see camera shake blur with the M11. If you are not so steady with your hands, or you're used to stabilised cameras and so unused to the best holding technique, then the M11 is not for you.

I wonder if that's how Leica sees its target market for the M11.

Edited February 20, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[lct]

21 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

If you use the best technique and you have good health and steady hands, then you won't see camera shake blur with the M11. If you are not so steady with your hands, or you're used to stabilised cameras and so unused to the best holding technique, then the M11 is not for you.

Optimistic version: We can still use our dirty old hands at 33MP or 18MP with e-shutter mode and a faster Viso. "What's not to like" as they say .  

[M11 for me]

vor 34 Minuten schrieb LocalHero1953:

So, after seven pages of discussion and testing, it looks like a fair summary would be:

If you use the best technique and you have good health and steady hands, then you won't see camera shake blur with the M11. If you are not so steady with your hands, or you're used to stabilised cameras and so unused to the best holding technique, then the M11 is not for you.

I wonder if that's how Leica sees its target market for the M11.

Plus most dynamic range you see at 36Mpix. So use the camera at 36. In crop mode it will automatically switch to 60Mpix mode for crop 39Mpix (1.3x) or 18Mpix (1.8x).

There is very useful information from the recent red dot firum discussion. This point is covered as well.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

4 hours ago, raizans said:

A 60mp sensor means that the M11 has to be treated like a medium or large format film camera to get max resolution. This isn’t what 35mm rangefinders were designed for, so there’s a bit of a clash between form factor and digital technology (and makes Triple Resolution essential). The EVF-M will or should resolve this tension.

Not quite. A larger sensor with the same MP count will show LESS camera movement than a smaller sensor. So you need to be slightly MORE steady with the M11.

Since the M11 and GFX100 have the same pixel pitch you'd need to have about the same steadiness for both. And my X1D has better ergonomics and a leaf shutter so I can handhold  at lower speeds than the M11.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

57 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

So, after seven pages of discussion and testing, it looks like a fair summary would be:

If you use the best technique and you have good health and steady hands, then you won't see camera shake blur with the M11. If you are not so steady with your hands, or you're used to stabilised cameras and so unused to the best holding technique, then the M11 is not for you.

I wonder if that's how Leica sees its target market for the M11.

I'd summarise it as follows, based on my usage.

1. The M11 does not have a shutter shock issue. (I've done a lot of testing in the 1/15 to 1/125 range.)

2. The M11 rewards excellent hand holding technique at higher resolutions so practice and get better.

3. Lower resolutions allow hand holding at slightly lower speeds.

4. If you're not prepared to improve your technique then the M11 is not for you. If you are the M11 is a heap of fun to shoot.

5. Get a Thumbie. Or the grip. Or both if you want at least a stop of handheld improvement. But definitely a Thumbie.

6. Nothing has changed from previous M's at *equivalent* resolutions so buying a M10R isn't going to help much.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

30 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

Plus most dynamic range you see at 36Mpix. So use the camera at 36. In crop mode it will automatically switch to 60Mpix mode for crop 39Mpix (1.3x) or 18Mpix (1.8x).

There is very useful information from the recent red dot firum discussion. This point is covered as well.

Shooting the crop modes won't help with camera shake. It may make things worse because you're simulating shooting with a longer lens. You're not making the pixels bigger. Using the pixel binning resolutions effectively makes for bigger pixels so you'll see less shake.

Gordon

[M11 for me]

vor 1 Minute schrieb FlashGordonPhotography:

Shooting the crop modes won't help with camera shake. It may make things worse because you're simulating shooting with a longer lens. You're not making the pixels bigger. Using the pixel binning resolutions effectively makes for bigger pixels so you'll see less shake.

Gordon

Completely right. I was probably unclear. My point is to avoid the problem by using the 36Mpix mode as the M11 through pixel binning behaves like a 36Mpix camera/sensor. 

And my second point that I repeat here is that when you want to crop that you do not have to remember to change the mode as the camera automatically changes to 60Mpix. And you are right that now you face the "issue" of blur due to hight Mpix. 

What is against using the M11 as 36Mpix camera? Is is the fact that it has actually 60? Even for large prints (lets assume 1m width) you do not need the 60MPix. The 60 gives us flexiblitity and this is a great thing.

[erudolph]

28 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

5. Get a Thumbie. Or the grip. Or both if you want at least a stop of handheld improvement. But definitely a Thumbie.

Gordon, does the Thumbie fit the M11?

[Herr Barnack]

34 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I'd summarise it as follows, based on my usage...

4. If you're not prepared to improve your technique then the M11 is not for you. If you are the M11 is a heap of fun to shoot.

5. Get a Thumbie. Or the grip. Or both if you want at least a stop of handheld improvement. But definitely a Thumbie.

6. Nothing has changed from previous M's at *equivalent* resolutions so buying a M10R isn't going to help much.

Gordon

If I may, a couple of observations -

Could not agree more with #5.  I have the Leica grip and a Thumbie on both my Q2 and M10 Mono.  Used together, they make a huge difference in being able to get a good, solid grip on the camera, and [to my eye] they do not detract from the beauty of the cameras.

Get the Leica soft release button and use it - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1059619-REG/leica_14010_soft_release_button_leica.html

Yes, the Leica made soft release costs a few dollars more - but it gives me peace of mind knowing that the thread pitch is the right thread pitch for my shutter release buttons.  Using this soft release does make a difference as I discovered this past week when looking at my files from images made with my M10M and 90/2 APO - some shot with the soft release, some without.  Believe it or not, there actually is a visible difference in terms of sharpness at 100%

A couple of other suggestions - use a monopod when shooting with slower shutter speeds and/or brace firmly against a stationary object when possible.

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[FlashGordonPhotography]

2 hours ago, erudolph said:

Gordon, does the Thumbie fit the M11?

The M10 version fits the M11 perfectly. Mine has been on since a few days after I got the camera.

Gordon

[M11 for me]

Right. I use the thumbie ples the release button. I agree that the 2 features make some difference. 

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[Erato]

On 2/19/2022 at 6:42 PM, analog-digital said:

This is NOT sharp at any time....

 

On 2/16/2022 at 9:43 PM, shirubadanieru said:

Erato pictures don’t look particularly sharp to me, now I don’t know if that’s this forums fault on how it compresses photos or if it’s because he shot handheld at 1/30 ahaha  either way, the M11 (and for that matter the M10M and M10R) are definitely easier to get blurry shots than the M9 / M240 / M10 where this was not even a problem you had to think about. 

 

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Edited February 21, 2022 by Erato
notes added