Problems getting sharp images by 60MP

[Tailwagger]

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5 minutes ago, pgk said:

I would be astounded if Leica had fitted a shutter which was anything but extremely low in vibrations, to the M11, especially given how it operates.

As would I, particularly given actual testing both hand-held and on a tripod, which I've published here previously proves that any blurring related to shutter actuation is minimal even at speeds under 1/10". Leica has been doing this shutter dance in LV mode since the intro of the M240. I had no complaints in this arena with the 240, the 10 or the 10-R, just as I have none with the M11. 

[aristotle]

50 minutes ago, TrickyMrT said:

100% correct.  At low shutter-speed i have issues getting sharp images with the M11. With identical shutter-speed on the M10 i have no problems and i get razor sharp images.

It would be instructive to see examples (and sorry if you posted these before...)  

[TrickyMrT]

@pgk

@mzbe

@hdmesa

@scott kirkpatrick

 

You are all so extrem right. Thank you for all this great feedback!

In my opinion Leica should better keep the focus on the camera instead of building unwanted phones.

The Leica Phone, watches etc.. 100% useless things.

They should stay on what they are good.

 

For me the 60MP is not a game changer. Because the sensor is developed and produced by Sony not by Leica.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SrMi]

3 minutes ago, TrickyMrT said:

@pgk

@mzbe

@hdmesa

@scott kirkpatrick

 

You are all so extrem right. Thank you for all this great feedback!

In my opinion Leica should better keep the focus on the camera instead of building unwanted phones.

The Leica Phone, watches etc.. 100% useless things.

They should stay on what they are good.

 

For me the 60MP is not a game changer. Because the sensor is developed and produced by Sony not by Leica.

 

Leica has never produced a sensor. Leica has always customized sensors with their own sensor toppings. That is the case with M11 as well.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

Some 40+ years ago, as part of my course, I used a Fastax high speed camera (an 'accelerating' 16mm which used to shred the end of the film as the speed reached its maximum) to film the focal plane shutter of a Pentax SLR. When the second curtain closed, the blind actually rebounded and the whole assembly shuddered. Four decades later shutter technology has matured with dampeners fitted as standard. I would be astounded if Leica had fitted a shutter which was anything but extremely low in vibrations, to the M11, especially given how it operates.

I'm sure the shutter is well-dampened, but at 60mp and 1/4000 second, there can still be shock that affects the image – unlike the typical 1/1000 second on film. Canon and other brands also have very well-dampened mechanical shutters, but they still offer EFCS in order to mitigate the effects of shutter shock. Leica could easily implement firmware that allows EFCS and an option for the Extended shutter mode to do EFCS up to 1/500 sec. then switch to mechanical at 1/600, then electronic over 1/4,000.

[M9reno]

It's interesting how this...

1 hour ago, aristotle said:

It would be instructive to see examples (and sorry if you posted these before...)  

... is followed by this...

1 hour ago, TrickyMrT said:

@pgk

@mzbe

@hdmesa

@scott kirkpatrick

You are all so extrem right. Thank you for all this great feedback!

In my opinion Leica should better keep the focus on the camera instead of building unwanted phones.

The Leica Phone, watches etc.. 100% useless things.

They should stay on what they are good.

For me the 60MP is not a game changer. Because the sensor is developed and produced by Sony not by Leica.

 

... and how the initial question has been answered ten times in ten different ways, by people who honestly want to engage, but the complaint just shifts to phones, watches and Sony.

[shirubadanieru]

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2 hours ago, TrickyMrT said:

@pgk

@mzbe

@hdmesa

@scott kirkpatrick

 

You are all so extrem right. Thank you for all this great feedback!

In my opinion Leica should better keep the focus on the camera instead of building unwanted phones.

The Leica Phone, watches etc.. 100% useless things.

They should stay on what they are good.

 

For me the 60MP is not a game changer. Because the sensor is developed and produced by Sony not by Leica.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Man I think yo just wanna complain not actually engage in a conversation. Also, no manufacturer (almost none) makes their own sensors. Leica has certainly never made any of their sensors since the M8. 

[harmen]

Very tricky

[Tailwagger]

5 hours ago, SrMi said:

Leica has never produced a sensor. Leica has always customized sensors with their own sensor toppings.

What's interesting in this regard is that one of their presumed (former?) suppliers, Tower Semi was just bought by Intel ostensibly for their foundry capability.  One wonders what impact that might have in the sensor arena. Increasingly we find ourselves at the mercy of Sony, who in other news announced an interesting new sensor architecture which involves separating the photo diodes and associated transistors into two layers which requires a special process to precisely glue the layer together. They claim increases DR and reduces noise as the size of the phot sites can be increased relative to pixel count.  The curious part is that the precise gluing sounds similar to the verbiage Leica used to describe he M11's new cover glass implementation.  Selling my M11 in anticipation of next year's M12. 😉

[lct]

Leica never made a single sensor AFAIK, at least the M8's was made by Kodak. Don't remember about the S1. As for the gluing techique described by Leica it reminds me of Kolari's "ultra thin filters" made for the M9 and Sony cameras among others.

[ilfalo]

Several pictures taken at 1/60 with m11 and m10, same time same iso.

All the pictures taken with m11 had motion blur if zoomed. No one for m10.

Moreover with the m11 i tried large and medium DNG  (this attached is medium) and the results was the same, motion blur for both.

I think medium and small dng are just a resize of the 60mp.

if you see it at 100% you can taste the difference, left is m11, right is m10. 

 

 

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[M11 for me]

Could you please show that at the same print size? I think that is essential in that whole discussion. Then maybe it takes a bit mire sharpening in LR with the M11 which might have to do with the DNGs.

[analog-digital]

Am 16.2.2022 um 13:43 schrieb Erato:

I guess that I am lucky...😅

 

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This is NOT sharp at any time....

[lct]

Question is will i see more motion blur all things equal with an M11 than with my M240. If the comparo is done at 18MP with the M11 and it shows more blur than my M240 or the M10 of our colleague above, the comparo is fair if the output has the same size more or less. Easy to check with P'shop or same or a ruler for those using printers (?) for testing. Hard to believe but a practical answer would be highly appreciated.

[aristotle]

2 hours ago, ilfalo said:

Several pictures taken at 1/60 with m11 and m10, same time same iso.

All the pictures taken with m11 had motion blur if zoomed. No one for m10.

Moreover with the m11 i tried large and medium DNG  (this attached is medium) and the results was the same, motion blur for both.

I think medium and small dng are just a resize of the 60mp.

if you see it at 100% you can taste the difference, left is m11, right is m10. 

 

 

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This is indeed at the heart of the confusion for folks.  In this case, you are choosing to view the M10 picture at less magnification than the M11 picture.  See above, M11 on the left from Ilfalo's example and M10 on the right.  When you view them at the same magnification, you get the same result, with the exception that the M10 picture shows more pixelation.  If for whatever reason you really wanted to view the M10 image at this magnification you'd do a more intelligent up sampling than I show here, but you'd also apply some sharpening to the M11 image.  This example does demonstrate I think why people are getting confused.  If your goal for your photography is to view straight out of camera 1:1 at native display resolution, then sure, the M11 isn't for you.  That's not the goal for many folks though.  Any image will show less blur when viewed at a lower magnification compared to the 35mm frame size.  In the image above, for any final output form factor, the M11 image will provide more detail than the M10 image.  Probably not enough to matter for most applications, but it's certainly a better starting point for images where you need to do a deep crop.  

Edited February 19, 2022 by aristotle

[M11 for me]

@aristotle Thanks for that. You see another difference: The 2 pictures have not the same brightness; one is darker than the other one. 

In this thread I am missing some science. We read

- M10 90% sharp, M11 10% sharp: Just feelings or one to one comparison?

- Pictures are shown at different sizes instead of same size

- Dark and brighter images in one set. Who tells us that 100 ISO is exactly the same on M10 or M11? Same with aperture. 

- Does Leica apply pixel binning and what would this mean re motion blur? 

- When one takes 2 pictures, one with M10 and a second one with M11, what tells us that the creater had the exact same steady hand in both?

- and why do you take pictures just ooc? Why not sharpen a bit in LR? Actually the final result has to be sharp not the ooc version when it is about sharpness. 

- How much detail do you see in 60 or 36 or 18 MPix at same size? (the correct figures are actually 60, 36 or 18 and when croping: 39 and 18. )

And why do some people insist that the M11 is just unusable whereas others are thrilled with the new resolution options? This thread can go on and on. 

I am very happy that I belong to the very happy group.

Edited February 19, 2022 by M11 for me

[lct]

54 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

Pictures are shown at different sizes instead of same size

How different are they? If you have P'shop or same you can check easily. Otherwise you may wish to upload your two files and i(we) will be glad to show you the truth in all its splendour .

[Erato]

3 hours ago, analog-digital said:

This is NOT sharp at any time....

LOL, yeap, I admit that I'm a human, not a cyborg or robot.😂

New sample taken this afternoon, FYR.

Please tapping on the photo for 100%.

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Screenshots, for EXIF info only. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Erato

[harmen]

3 hours ago, ilfalo said:

Several pictures taken at 1/60 with m11 and m10, same time same iso.

All the pictures taken with m11 had motion blur if zoomed. No one for m10.

Moreover with the m11 i tried large and medium DNG  (this attached is medium) and the results was the same, motion blur for both.

I think medium and small dng are just a resize of the 60mp.

if you see it at 100% you can taste the difference, left is m11, right is m10. 

 

 

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I don’t see motion blur for either the left or the right one.  The right one seems to have some small artifacts and irregularities. The left one shows a tiny bit more detail.  Contrast or curves seem a little different too with the right one having more pronounced darker elements.  Maybe the difference is processing; not motion.

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[AceVentura1986]

Higher resolution cameras are just naturally less forgiving of camera shake, period, full stop. There really is no solution to this problem other than shooting 2x or 3x the normal shutter speed, using a  tripod or image stabilization. Please see this article by Ming Thein as he explains it much better than I can. 

Moreover, there are times when you may want SOME image blur but no camera shake. In cases where you might want to drag the shutter a bit to capture a subject’s movement but still keep the background sharp (a dancer an athlete in motion, for example) the standard technique is to shoot at around 1/30 of a second. That is slow enough to capture the subject’s movement but still keep the background sharp. 

However, to guard against camera shake inherent in higher reso sensors, the standard technique is to shoot at 2x or 3x regular shutter speed and compensate w higher ISO. However, shooting at 2x or 3x to ensure a sharp background (1/60 or 1/90) will tend to freeze the image. Increasing the shutter speed will not work as it will necessarily freeze the subject’s movement, which was the whole point of dragging the shutter in the first place. 

FWIW, I don’t own an M11, but I do own an ME and an M9M (18mpx each) and also own a Canon 5DsR (50mpx). The Canon is usually relegated to landscape shots mounted on a tripod, image stabilized lenses or higher shutter speeds. I use my old Leicas for everything else. 

Moreover, for most people in most circumstances there simply is no benefit or even use for such high pixel counts. I’ve been shooting digital cameras since my original Canon D30 (3mpx!) way back in 2000 and 1D (4mpx) in 2002. I’ve printed 3 and 4 mpx images to 12x18 inches with no issues at all. I’ve printed and displayed photos from my M9M (18 mpx) to 48 inches on the long side, again with no loss in quality. IMHO, and this will likely upset some people, 16 mpx is sufficient for almost everything and anything above 24 mpx is overkill UNLESS the photographer has a specific, articulable need for higher reso, such as advertising photography or landscapes. However, for a Leica M, that is typically shot handheld and under fast-moving conditions, 60 mpx is way overkill. 

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by AceVentura1986