Problems getting sharp images by 60MP

[Photoworks]

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5 hours ago, snooper said:

Whatever the reason is, most people here do admit there are specific considerations and techniques to adopt - or at least to keep in mind - when using an M11. In short, and in 2022, we have to downgrade the IQ by using much higher ISO, just because we now need to shoot at a speed equivalent to 4 or 5 times the focal length.

quit are you reading or smoking? my most use shutter speed on the M11 are 1/125 and 1/160..

5 hours ago, snooper said:

I’m sorry to say that IMHO this is not an improvement at all, while the M family was always somehow linked to slow speeds and low lights, with lenses wide opened / hand held / stealth. This is part of the M DNA, and contributive to the so called “Leica look”.

M11 would then be the first M you can’t really use as Ms were being used for decades (had my first M4P in 1981).

I remember shooting film and high ISO was 800, then in late 90's a neg film came out with 1600 ASA. that was great for the time, but I am glad those day are over for me..

No years later I am scanning in all that film and are thankful how the new digital cameras are so clean at 12500ISO , no more golfball grain size..

And I noticed motion blur in my film days too, I should not have shot so much at 1/30 and 1/60 on moving people 

A.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Photoworks

[aristotle]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

So are we all agreed then, that you can shoot the M11 at 1/f* only if you have rock solid hands and technique, otherwise you should shoot at 1/2f or 1/4f?
So if you want to shoot at 1/f, but you do not have rock solid hands and technique, then a M11 would be a waste of money?

 

*Edit: at 60mp

In my view, for me, it would be a waste of money if the only reason that I was trading in my M10R for the M11 was for the extra resolution.  That's because I typically don't print big or crop well into images.  On the other hand, if I didn't already have an M10R, there is no question that I'd get the M11.  I could shoot it exactly as I do my M10R and get results at least as good, or for those rare occasions where I wanted to take advantage of the marginal resolution increase, I could take that into account (in my case, more likely by using a tripod because I can't ever see myself doing a wall-sized enlargement of a street scene).

I may in fact decide that other factors associated with the M11 might be worth the loss associated with trading in the M10R, but I'm not there yet.  From a practical perspective, shooting these fast leica lenses wide open, accurate focus is going to be more limiting than any camera shake issues in any case.  Just like most of us have had to learn to live with the hit/miss aspects of wide-open focus, we have to accept the hit / miss aspects of hand-holding captures that are intended to be printed very large.

Edited April 1, 2022 by aristotle

[lct]

1 hour ago, aristotle said:

[...] From a practical perspective, shooting these fast leica lenses wide open, accurate focus is going to be more limiting than any camera shake issues in any case.  Just like most of us have had to learn to live with the hit/miss aspects of wide-open focus, we have to accept the hit / miss aspects of hand-holding captures that are intended to be printed very large.

Not sure to follow you. Fast lenses are all the more necessary as higher shutter speeds are needed to compensate for the lack of IBIS. Or am i missing something?

[jaapv]

Yes, you are. ISO capability. 

[lct]

3 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Yes, you are. ISO capability. 

Not sure to follow you either. For a given iso value apertures must be wider if shutter speeds increase. BTW i seem to recall a good colleague here who were claiming that iso does not determine exposure. Was a couple years ago though so my memory may fail me...

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Not sure to follow you. Fast lenses are all the more necessary as higher shutter speeds are needed to compensate for the lack of IBIS. Or am i missing something?

One typically selects aperture for a desired DOF not for increasing or decreasing shutter speed.

[aristotle]

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4 hours ago, lct said:

Not sure to follow you. Fast lenses are all the more necessary as higher shutter speeds are needed to compensate for the lack of IBIS. Or am i missing something?

As mentioned above, aperture is often selected based on what you would like to place in focus and what you'd like to place out of focus.  But regardless, I was just pointing out that for a fast lens wide open, a shot is much more likely to be "blurry" because the focus was slightly off than because of camera shake at speeds of 1/f or faster.  As said many times in many ways, IBIS will be helpful for folks who want to print big and take full advantage of the extra resolution in an M11 but don't want to use a tripod or shutter speeds faster than many are accustomed to.  But it won't be helpful for folks who don't often print big and when they do, they are prepared to take extra care.

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, lct said:

Not sure to follow you either. For a given iso value apertures must be wider if shutter speeds increase. BTW i seem to recall a good colleague here who were claiming that iso does not determine exposure. Was a couple years ago though so my memory may fail me...

Choose your aperture and shutter speed and adjust ISO. Indeed ISO does not affect the final image like aperture (DOF) or shutter speed (freezing motion) does. In that sense it is not an exposure parameter but a derivative value enabling a given exposure. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Yes, you are. ISO capability. 

Can you please be more specific? I am not sure what ISO capability you are referring to ... I haven't seen any noteworthy progress from the M11 (just received mine today). Unlike M10M ... So: How many stops better, relative to which other body?

[jaapv]

I was not talking about the M11 specifically but about present-day cameras in general. Most if not all are high-ISO capable enough to make very fast lens speed not essential for low light photography any more. Wide apertures are mainly for shallow DOF. 

[lct]

2 hours ago, aristotle said:

As said many times in many ways, IBIS will be helpful for folks who want to print big and take full advantage of the extra resolution in an M11 but don't want to use a tripod or shutter speeds faster than many are accustomed to.  But it won't be helpful for folks who don't often print big and when they do, they are prepared to take extra care.

I could not disagree more sorry. I rarely print and IBIS is simply indispensable to me on high res cameras i mean. It is so obviously useful to me that I am a little embarrassed to insist on such a basic point, sorry again but as they say your mileage... ..

[jaapv]

If IBIS is indispensable for you I would not waste my money on an M11. It is certain to disappoint. Using it in low-resolution mode wont help. The sensor is always 60 MP and will record motion blur; down-sampling by the electronics will not remove it.

[lct]

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

If IBIS is indispensable for you I would not waste my money on an M11. It is certain to disappoint. Using it in low-resolution mode wont help. The sensor is always 60 MP and will record motion blur; down-sampling by the electronics will not remove it.

As i said above, 60mp don't interest me in the M11. I expect to use it as a 36 or 18mp camera and see how it works for me. BTW when i downsample, i don't "remove" motion blur, it simply becomes less visible or negligible the same way as small details may "disappear" this way. I'm not too much concerned about this on the M11, at 18mp at least. I'm less sure about 36mp as i clearly see the difference when i set IBIS on and off on my 42mp Sony. In the worst case the M11 will have to go but i would have kept an open mind about this so-called "pixel binning" i had no experience with. 

[SoarFM]

On 3/31/2022 at 5:01 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

would ask if @snooper's camera was exactly calibrated

Funny thing about a rangefinder, if it’s just a teeny bit out of calibration you start to think you’re just having a hard time focusing a rangefinder, or maybe you have a little camera shake. But when the rangefinder is adjusted properly, it just seems to hit focus every time and with ease. Even on an M11. A mis-focusing rangefinder can easily be mistaken for camera shake. The 50 APO he is using focuses easily and accurately at all distances.

A tripod and live view (and better yet, a visoflex) can diagnose the issue.

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

I was not talking about the M11 specifically but about present-day cameras in general. Most if not all are high-ISO capable enough to make very fast lens speed not essential for low light photography any more. Wide apertures are mainly for shallow DOF. 

Sounds like this is another subjective call - I respect your decision but noise is not the only aspect, you are also getting decreased dynamic range, reduced color fidelity, ... re:"present day cameras", I have seriously not seen much progress here since about 10 years ago; think D800e as representative of higher resolution specimen - newer cameras of same or higher res, not counting medium format, seem to have improved by maybe 1 stop. The biggest win for low light honestly was IBIS, not sensors. Or just buy *Lux lenses and shoot open, with the Nocti I have never experienced camera ISO range as a limitation at f/0.95 🙂

[harmen]

36 minutes ago, SoarFM said:

Funny thing about a rangefinder, if it’s just a teeny bit out of calibration you start to think you’re just having a hard time focusing a rangefinder, or maybe you have a little camera shake. But when the rangefinder is adjusted properly, it just seems to hit focus every time and with ease. Even on an M11. A mis-focusing rangefinder can easily be mistaken for camera shake. The 50 APO he is using focuses easily and accurately at all distances.

A tripod and live view (and better yet, a visoflex) can diagnose the issue.

 

When you look at that particular photo, you can see that the maximum amount of detail is where her right eye is.  It seems perfectly in focus.  The hair also shows that there is no obvious motion in any direction.  It simply has low edge contrast, which is likely due to sharpening settings.

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, lct said:

As i said above, 60mp don't interest me in the M11. I expect to use it as a 36 or 18mp camera and see how it works for me. BTW when i downsample, i don't "remove" motion blur, it simply becomes less visible or negligible the same way as small details may "disappear" this way. I'm not too much concerned about this on the M11, at 18mp at least. I'm less sure about 36mp as i clearly see the difference when i set IBIS on and off on my 42mp Sony. In the worst case the M11 will have to go but i would have kept an open mind about this so-called "pixel binning" i had no experience with. 

What does interest you about an M11 then? It sounds a bit like buying a powerful sports car to use for toddling about in the suburbs. 

Did you see this thread?

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, mzbe said:

Sounds like this is another subjective call - I respect your decision but noise is not the only aspect, you are also getting decreased dynamic range, reduced color fidelity, ... re:"present day cameras", I have seriously not seen much progress here since about 10 years ago; think D800e as representative of higher resolution specimen - newer cameras of same or higher res, not counting medium format, seem to have improved by maybe 1 stop. The biggest win for low light honestly was IBIS, not sensors. Or just buy *Lux lenses and shoot open, with the Nocti I have never experienced camera ISO range as a limitation at f/0.95 🙂

Are you seriously claiming that there has been no progress in ISO performance between for instance the Canon 5D mk2 and Canon 5D mk4, or the M9, M240  and M11?  Not to mention the spectacular gains in postprocessing software (which may be beside the point in camera design, but is essential for camera performance)
I wonder what decision I made - I do own a number of  fast (Summilux) lenses, (no need to buy, just open my safe  ) for their wide open performance. However, I prefer, for instance, the low light rendering of the Summicron 35 asph over that of the Summilux 35 FLE. Indeed a subjective call, but  the camera is not the limiting factor. 

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[snooper]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

If IBIS is indispensable for you I would not waste my money on an M11. It is certain to disappoint. Using it in low-resolution mode wont help. The sensor is always 60 MP and will record motion blur; down-sampling by the electronics will not remove it.

I’ve had no blurry results on the M10M. Let’s say 80% of the shots are as expected. I often go down to a speed eq to 1/F, hand held, no issue.

With the M11 and the 50 APO (+ visoflex 2) maybe 20% are acceptable, and a bit more with the 35 APO. Shutter type on “Hybrid”. So weird.

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[lct]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

What does interest you about an M11 then? It sounds a bit like buying a powerful sports car to use for toddling about in the suburbs. [...]

What interests me is what i don't have currently. A modern M camera at last, well... let's say half of it . It lacks IBIS for sure but it works the same way as my other modern cameras otherwise i.e. in e-shutter mode most of the time. This way it is more responsive and its Visoflex should be less sluggish this way. Also it has what i miss with my Sonys, i.e. a sensor dedicated to M lenses and auto image magnification. For the rest i don't need large resolutions and i share the viewpoint of the colleague above about the M spirit. M cameras have never been made for printing billboards. Now Leica has been smart or astute enough to make a camera with 3 resolutions. 60mp don't interest me but i will explore 36 and 18mp with curiosity. YMMV.