Problems getting sharp images by 60MP

[orcinus]

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[Tailwagger]

2 hours ago, orcinus said:

But claiming 60 MP is a downgrade is just silly

What I find hysterically funny is how short the collective memory is. When the 10 arrived, it was roundly criticized for only having 24 Mpx; page upon page was filled with how the A7R was such an advance over it.  When the 10-R arrived to address that shortcoming, it too was greeted as an anathema.  Recall all the words spat out around the difference  in "aesthetics" between the M10 and the excessive acuity of the 10-R. With all that in the past, we're onto a whole new set of reasons as to why 40 was fine, but 60 is clearly too much.

Eventually,  most folks will acclimate to the new normal.  IMO, one of the more pleasant surprises has been how more convincing M11 files are when downsized (in post) than many of  those out of the 10-R. With the R, I had the sense that compressing all those pixels by a factor of 10x had consequences at internet viewing levels (and said so in those old threads).  I'd admit that more than a few scenes felt a little crispier than I'd typically like when viewed on screen. With the M11, OTOH, no such sensation.  Not sure precisely why, though I do note that raw M11 files can be sharpened to a far greater degree.  This suggests to me that perhaps due to in-camera downsizing, Leica altered some of the core raw parameters to ensure internally downsized files to render more smoothly. Dunno, but the effect seems quite real to me. From this, I'd posit that those solely interested in viewing digitally would be generally happier with the 11 over the R.

I'd also concur with several others who've mentioned that the M11 has a certain MF feel to it. I recall when I first shot with 645D a decade ago, looking at the results and marveling about all the little details in the scene that I failed to notice when taking the shot. Never had that feeling with any previous M, but the M11 certainly has rekindled it. 

 

 

[orcinus]

9 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

What I find hysterically funny is how short the collective memory is.

That too.
And comments about "adding unnecessary technological complexity" when omitting the light meter assembly is, in fact, reducing the part count and complexity compared to M10.

[Tailwagger]

40 minutes ago, orcinus said:

That too.
And comments about "adding unnecessary technological complexity" when omitting the light meter assembly is, in fact, reducing the part count and complexity compared to M10.

And, per Leica, reducing undesirable  internal reflections.

The other thing I've had a few good chuckles over is the notion that those who own the camera and 'defend it'  have views that are the product of confirmation bias, whereas critiques by M9 through 10-R owners, most of whom have yet to even hold the camera, are objective.  It seems to go entirely unnoticed that opting not to do something is no less a choice than actually going ahead and doing it.  So many of the arguments offered against the M11 smell of self-justification in the opposite direction. AFAIC, the arguing the camera is too complex falls straight into that bucket. And how many of those same folks are saying the camera needs IBIS due to the extra pixels?

The largest flaw in the M11 is that it was released a little earlier than it should have been.  Understandable given the challenges imposed by the pandemic, both from an engineering as well as a financial perspective, but the glitches, though manageable, have tarnished an otherwise stellar effort.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Tailwagger

[orcinus]

2 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

The largest flaw in the M11 is that it was released a little earlier than it should have been.  Understandable given the challenges imposed by the pandemic, both from an engineering as well as a financial perspective, but the glitches, though manageable, have tarnished an otherwise stellar effort.

There's also the aspect of supply constrained production and limited quantities, combined with the fact it costs the same as M10-R, which is currently in abundant supply (or so it seems).

[TrickyMrT]

On 2/28/2022 at 6:25 PM, Tailwagger said:

What I find hysterically funny is how short the collective memory is. When the 10 arrived, it was roundly criticized for only having 24 Mpx; page upon page was filled with how the A7R was such an advance over it.  When the 10-R arrived to address that shortcoming, it too was greeted as an anathema.  Recall all the words spat out around the difference  in "aesthetics" between the M10 and the excessive acuity of the 10-R. With all that in the past, we're onto a whole new set of reasons as to why 40 was fine, but 60 is clearly too much.

Eventually,  most folks will acclimate to the new normal.  IMO, one of the more pleasant surprises has been how more convincing M11 files are when downsized (in post) than many of  those out of the 10-R. With the R, I had the sense that compressing all those pixels by a factor of 10x had consequences at internet viewing levels (and said so in those old threads).  I'd admit that more than a few scenes felt a little crispier than I'd typically like when viewed on screen. With the M11, OTOH, no such sensation.  Not sure precisely why, though I do note that raw M11 files can be sharpened to a far greater degree.  This suggests to me that perhaps due to in-camera downsizing, Leica altered some of the core raw parameters to ensure internally downsized files to render more smoothly. Dunno, but the effect seems quite real to me. From this, I'd posit that those solely interested in viewing digitally would be generally happier with the 11 over the R.

I'd also concur with several others who've mentioned that the M11 has a certain MF feel to it. I recall when I first shot with 645D a decade ago, looking at the results and marveling about all the little details in the scene that I failed to notice when taking the shot. Never had that feeling with any previous M, but the M11 certainly has rekindled it. 

 

 

You missed the point. It is not about the amount of MP, it is about a missing IBIS to shoot at lower shutter-speed sharp images.

The higher the MP the higher the risk of blurry images. I have no problem with 60 MP or more when it is possible to shoot handheld photos.

 

Leica, please put a IBIS in the M11 and take all my cash ! 😀

 

 

 

[Tailwagger]

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1 hour ago, TrickyMrT said:

You missed the point. It is not about the amount of MP, it is about a missing IBIS to shoot at lower shutter-speed sharp images.

Ah... what in the post you quoted has anything to do with IBIS? Which current Ms have it?  Would I turn down IBIS in an M... no. But it's irrelevant when comparing the M11 to previous generations and worrying about sharpness at low shutter speed. As has been stated ad nauseum, with good technique one can shoot effectively sub 1/10".  From all statements of some that they need to shoot a 1/2F or beyond, I guarantee you that there are some of us who can shoot with the M11 at the same speeds as these folks with an M10 and do just as well. 

No M has ever had IBIS for reasons that have been stated pretty clearly by Leica. Someday, perhaps, but in the meantime, folks either need to challenge themselves to work on their shooting technique rather than expect a technological fix or go with the SL2 if they find IBIS to be a requirement.

[idusidusi]

On 2/28/2022 at 5:41 PM, orcinus said:

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That's a serious piece of kit for the beach! All that lovely fine sand ...

[peterinkingston]

33 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Ah... what in the post you quoted has anything to do with IBIS? Which current Ms have it?  Would I turn down IBIS in an M... no. But it's irrelevant when comparing the M11 to previous generations and worrying about sharpness at low shutter speed. As has been stated ad nauseum, with good technique one can shoot effectively sub 1/10".  From all statements of some that they need to shoot a 1/2F or beyond, I guarantee you that there are some of us who can shoot with the M11 at the same speeds as these folks with an M10 and do just as well. 

No M has ever had IBIS for reasons that have been stated pretty clearly by Leica. Someday, perhaps, but in the meantime, folks either need to challenge themselves to work on their shooting technique rather than expect a technological fix or go with the SL2 if they find IBIS to be a requirement.

To be honest, even with my M6s And even my old fuji xt1 (long gone) I have always tried to think a bit more and use the nearest support. A more triangular shape between my arm and ribs, a wall by my side, a car bonnet or even the top of a chair if I'm indoors. I dont think the m11 is the sort of camera that a groovy fashion photographer would use, jumping off ladders or running along a red carpet.

My current digital, fuji x100f is the worst for blur. It takes me too long to take a shot, the view finder is cluttered and trying to avoid the useless settings drives me nuts, I often fumble or give up. Give me any M any day of tbe week.

My Ms generally works for me down to about 1/15 of a sec with great success.

I guess what most people are talking about is, that shot when you are getting off the tube and people are walking around or you see something cool and you are fumbling with your shopping and you need to balance.

I once managed to grab a great shot of a little 4year old girl on her scooter, her dad was holding her scooter and the lights were changing. Not wanting to get run over I had to keep my eye on the road while taking the shot and make sure the dad was okay with it.

Some sort of Ibis ois etc would make life easier but ultimately you need to adapt a little. Or as some of the good replies I have had here say, 'get a camera you feel you can use'.

Bugs aside the M11 is fantastic no doubt. Maybe for some users its not quite right. Maybe Leica will release a full frame  24mp of the m11 (like the SL2S) with all the benefits/improvements of the M11 (inc Bsi and better power management), but we will have to see.

I carried 2 M6s (one for colour and one for bw) But in the meantime the M10P is tested and looks great value. If you can afford the M11 you can afford a second 10mp. It has its place. People love it, and wont depreciate much from now.

 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by peterinkingston

[peterinkingston]

31 minutes ago, idusidusi said:

That's a serious piece of kit for the beach! All that lovely fine sand ...

Real Ibis and Ois. Im not sure it would go in hand luggage.

[Kwesi]

1 hour ago, peterinkingston said:

I guess what most people are talking about is, that shot when you are getting off the tube and people are walking around or you see something cool and you are fumbling with your shopping and you need to balance.

For me,

I would throw the ISO on "A" on the M11( in my case that brings me up to 6400) set my shutter speed to 250,  my 28/35/50 either wide open or up to f4, and get the shot.

Chances are my ISO would already be on A because I like to shoot on the subway (tube)

 

 

[Kwesi]

1 hour ago, peterinkingston said:

Maybe Leica will release a full frame  24mp of the m11 (like the SL2S) with all the benefits/improvements of the M11 (inc Bsi and better power management), but we will have to see.

Somehow I don't think so, the SL2-s, video improvements aside, was really introduced so as to be more price competitive in a crowded market. Here in the US there is a $2k price difference between the SL2 and SL2-s

No such pressures exist in the M line

[peterinkingston]

28 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Somehow I don't think so, the SL2-s, video improvements aside, was really introduced so as to be more price competitive in a crowded market. Here in the US there is a $2k price difference between the SL2 and SL2-s

No such pressures exist in the M line

That makes sense.

I wasnt thinking about video (god forbid)

I was thinking more like:

A new sensor grain free at ISO 32000.

A nicely engraved top plate!

A free evf

A free 35mm APO (yummy)

>> AND Maestro IV for:

> Super fast startup

> 4.5 frames per second bracketed shooting changing the speed and  giving +1,0, -1 stops over and under exposure.

 

 

 

[peterinkingston]

As everyone has probably guessed by now. I'm a bit of a dreamer.

I run my software company the same way

Edited March 2, 2022 by peterinkingston

[SrMi]

15 minutes ago, peterinkingston said:

That makes sense.

I wasnt thinking about video (god forbid)

I was thinking more like:

A new sensor grain free at ISO 32000.

A nicely engraved top plate!

A free evf

A free 35mm APO (yummy)

>> AND Maestro IV for:

> Super fast startup

> 4.5 frames per second bracketed shooting changing the speed and  giving +1,0, -1 stops over and under exposure.

What? No IBIS, no global shutter? If EVF and APO 35mm are free, I would expect the camera to be free as well. That would make Leica #1 on the market.

🤣

[FlashGordonPhotography]

4 hours ago, peterinkingston said:

That makes sense.

I wasnt thinking about video (god forbid)

I was thinking more like:

A new sensor grain free at ISO 32000.

A nicely engraved top plate!

A free evf

A free 35mm APO (yummy)

>> AND Maestro IV for:

> Super fast startup

> 4.5 frames per second bracketed shooting changing the speed and  giving +1,0, -1 stops over and under exposure.

 

 

 

You're nearly describing a Q camera.....

Gordon

[peterinkingston]

21 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

You're nearly describing a Q camera.....

Gordon

Interesting.

Okay, how about Leica does the following:

- drill a hole through the top left and make it a range finder/viewfinder.

-  make the lens interchangeable.

Actually dont bother, I prefer the M in its previous and current  form. Beautiful, warts and all.

 

[fsprow]

After a week, I have found the "sharpness" of the M11 images quite comparable to my Hasselblad H6D-100c. Being a light camera, I have found that shutter speeds of 1/2x focal length (e.g. 1/125th for a 50 mm lens) are required and produce excellent results if one is careful hand - holding.  Love this camera.

I'd also note that used with a 90mm Summicron with the 1.8X crop factor in camera and a little further cropping in post generates quite satisfactory (sort of 200mm equivalent ) images if carefully focused and/or at smaller apertures.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 3/2/2022 at 11:41 PM, TrickyMrT said:

You missed the point. It is not about the amount of MP, it is about a missing IBIS to shoot at lower shutter-speed sharp images.

The higher the MP the higher the risk of blurry images. I have no problem with 60 MP or more when it is possible to shoot handheld photos.

 

Leica, please put a IBIS in the M11 and take all my cash ! 😀

 

 

 

Have you considered purchasing a camera that has IBIS? Rather than bitch about one that doesn't have it?

And how do you expect Leica to add IBIS to the M11? A firmware update?

I get people might have wished the M added IBIS. But it's not there for very good reason. It won't fit, currently. So having that information, if IBIS is critical, wouldn't you just be choosing from a list of cameras with that feature rather than wishing it into a camera without it?

I avoid Sony due to the lousy menus, buttons and handling. I don't jump up and down that they don't have a decent joystick or a grip I don't have to jam my fingers into. I just rule them out as a purchase choice and move on. Maybe it's time for some on here to do the same about the M11. A camera that most haven't held or used as they make their judgement.

Gordon

p.s. The risk of blurry pictures has nothing to do with MP. It's all about output size.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[jaapv]

10 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

p.s. The risk of blurry pictures has nothing to do with MP. It's all about output size.

Actually, the images at 60 MP are exactly as blurry as the images one made at 10,18, or 24 MP. It is just that the camera shows the existing user error whereas lower MP cameras hide it. (At 100%) Will it show in any reasonably sized print? No. Can it be corrected? Yes, with Photoshop Sharpen or, even better, Topaz Sharpen AI. 
Would IBIS help? Only for camera shake, not for subject motion - which postprocessing will.