Charging M11 Batteries

[SrMi]

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Using a USB-C power meter, I measured the following:

Battery 90% full

Apple 87W charger (5V/2.4A)
Charging dock: 5V/1.4A
In-camera: 5V/1.7A

M11 charger (box): (5V/2A)
Charging dock: 5V/1.4A
In-camera: 5V/1.7A

My conclusion:
- The included charger charges already as fast as possible. Therefore, there is no need for a more powerful charger.
- A charger should provide 5V/2A to charge the battery efficiently.
- Charging in-camera is a bit faster than charging it in the dock.

Caveat: I do not know if there is any difference with different initial battery capacities.

 

[digitalfx]

40a USB-C Charger charges twice as fast via USB-C directly to camera

(each output is 20a)

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[SrMi]

33 minutes ago, digitalfx said:

40a USB-C Charger charges twice as fast via USB-C directly to camera

(each output is 20a)

 

Did you mean 40W and each output 20W instead of 40A and 20A (Anker 521 Nano charger)? 
I was charging the camera with an 87W charger, and it charged as fast as the small included charger.
The upper limit on how fast a battery can be charged is set by the charger (in-camera or battery dock).
Also, the 40W number is typically only for high voltage (e.g., 20V), while it is much smaller at 5V (M11 battery charging voltage). For example, the Anker 521 Nano Pro charges 5V at 15W at most (3A). I tried another 5V/3A charger, which charges at the same "speed" (wattage).

Edited February 2, 2022 by SrMi

[digitalfx]

oops...yes 40w

20w ea...both ports are full 20w

Ill test again, but I thought my battery fully charged in under 2 hrs

[SrMi]

12 minutes ago, digitalfx said:

oops...yes 40w

20w ea...both ports are full 20w

Ill test again, but I thought my battery fully charged in under 2 hrs

The in-camera charging that I measured is 8.5W (5V * 1.7A). If the charge is constant (it sometimes tapers off toward the end), then the battery (13.32Wh) should be fully charged in about 1.6 hours with Leica's included charger (8.5W * 1.6 hours).
Do you see a much slower charge time with Leica's USB charger while charging in-camera? Occasionally, I observe some strangeness when trying to charge in-camera. AFAICT, in-dock charging is more predictable.

[digitalfx]

Ive only charged the battery twice. 1st time was with the battery placed in the Leica Batter Charger (not via USB-C)...it took over 3 hours. If I recall it was over 2 hrs to 80% and then another hour to get to 100%.

The 2nd time was via USB-C, and I believe it was under 2 hours.

 

I have a new battery arriving Thursday and I'll test again and pay closer attention to times.

[ELAN]

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I think the battery charger trickle charges the last 20% to maximize battery life. The in camera charging probably does not, hence it’s a bit faster. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by ELAN

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Charge times will be dictated to a maximum at the charger BMS and/or battery BMS. Using a more powerful charger doesn't increase charge speed because the charger will only take power to its maximum, not the maximum the power supply can provide. Generally faster charging is more detrimental to battery health than slower charging. The last stage of charging will be a cell balancing stage and is done at a much lower rate. That's why the last 20% takes almost as long as the first 80%.

Leicas M11 cahrger appears to be a 10 watt charger. Adding a bigger power supply isn't going to change that.

Gordon

[John Black]

The Lecia Store Miami ran their batteries totally to 0% and then charged via in-camera and via the Leica supplied charger.  I don't remember the exact numbers, but they found in camera charging faster and suspected the charger did trickle charging for the last 20%.  In camera was ~2 hr.  Via charger was ~3 hrs.  This was video.  The battery times were discussed during the 2nd half of session (around the 1 hr 30 min mark).

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by John Black
Adding the 1 hr 30 min comment.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Thanks for pointing this out. I have trouble even getting a M11 battery discharged much, but David reports recharge times of 3 hours from 0% in the (gentler cycle) that the Leica charging block uses, and only 2 hrs in the camera.  They didn't show it, but they seem to have plotted the % charged that the camera reports at some times along this curve.  The camera, i think, shows anything above 80% as "100% charged."  That's to go easier on the battery.  Also, I presume they are using Ameerican 110 volt current, not European 220 volt, which may or may not make a difference.  Some of us have $20 USB ammeters at our disposal and can answer the question of whether the camera is quicker because it shuts down faster or because it charges with a higher current.  I have watched the current decrease and shutoff in camera.  It seems fairly quick, but I. but have not compared this with the end of charging in the Leica block charger, to see if it is gentler.  It's on my list of things to explore.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Here's what my "lab" looks like.  Top view of my M11 battery in the Leica charger, with ammeter in the path.  The rather low amperage is because it is nearly done charging.

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[Gelatino]

What about the idea that a battery has longer life if:

-charged when  it reaches 20%  and not charged beyond 80%   if not necessary 

-slowly charged  

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Gelatino

[scott kirkpatrick]

7 hours ago, Gelatino said:

What about the idea that a battery has longer life if:

-charged when  it reaches 20%  and not charged beyond 80%   if not necessary 

-slowly charged  

 

With the4 M10's small battery, I figured that it was best to charge it to the max.  With the larger M11 battery,I only purchased one, and will try to make it last longer by not overcharging. What fraction to stop at will take a little exploring.

Edited February 26, 2022 by scott kirkpatrick

[SrMi]

I charge all my camera batteries to 100%. 

[LEGEND]

I do charge my M11 batteries first 3-4 time 0% to 100% , full cycle so I can get maximum capacity.
Also I do this in the Leica Battery Charger because it is better for the battery.
Than I use battery as recommended from 20% to 80%. I never let her charge over 80% or 
let her go down under 20%. Only when I need more than 100% and must go under 20%.
Most of the time I have no need to charge to the maximum because I have 2 extra batteries.
These I always rotate when I use the camera. That way they can last very long time. 
And for the charging in the camera per USB-C I use this only when I need faster charging, longer 
shooting where I connect the camera with a Power pack or if I need to charge 2 batteries in the same time.
Perhaps I complicate this a little but I am careful and want my M11 batteries to last as much as they can.
They are not cheap...

[FlashGordonPhotography]

If you only charge batteries to 80% you will not enter the cell balancing stage, which is vital for battery health. Every few cycles should include a cell balance.

There is generally not an issue changing LiOn batteries to 100%. There is a problem storing them there. Lithium batteries don't like being stored with a high SoC (state of charge).

If the camera is in use then charge to 100% is fine. When putting the batteries away for a while try and store somewhere in the 40-70% range.

Gordon

[LBJ2]

The General Instructions section on the Leica M11 battery paperwork states:

"A new battery only reaches its full capacity after it has been fully charged and by using it in the camera, depleted 2 to 3 times. This depletion process should be repeated roughly ever 25 cycles"

* Leica SL2 battery manual describes the same approach

I don't see any mention of this 20% / 80% camera battery rule I see often passed around on the forums or Youtube on either the M11 or SL2 battery paperwork. 

[Gelatino]

I read since long ago that a battery new from the box had to be fully charged almost one time before use, that it would develop its full capacity after several discharge/charge, that full discharge was not recommended and that slow charge was better to avoid heat, all things  I practice because I have no personnal knowledge about batteries. 

Actualy it seems that the "20% / 80%" camera battery rule" as you call it is recommended  to optimize the battery life of smart phones, specially if not in use for some time.

All this depending of the chimical process of the battery.

[MarkShot]

Is there a way to check the battery "health?"

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[MarkShot]

With the Leica charger ... a little confused by the lights and the functional design.  Will the charger stop once it hits 80%?  And what does flashing indicate versus solid light?