Lightroom Lens Corrections

[tashley]

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Am I being thick or do they for some reason not work? I see that under Optics, the check boxes are there for CA and distortion correction and that it generally (not for my 28mm Summaron but for the others) auto selects the correct lens, but it isn't applying any corrections. If I search my LR catalog for M10-R files with the same lenses, the corrections apply and un-apply when I check the relevant box but with the M11 they do nothing. Odd really: I get that it's a new camera and that it doesn't yet have a LR profile but the corrections are just geometry and for a frame of the same aspect ration you'd expect them to work?

 

Any thoughts?

Edited February 1, 2022 by tashley

[SrMi]

Maybe the next Adobe update, adding official support for M11, will fix it.

[UliWer]

1 hour ago, tashley said:

but it isn't applying any corrections

Well, I confess that I prefer it this way. Therefore I disable "lens correction" usually in Lightroom. 

I see no reason to conceal the characteristics of a lens - as long as the lens is not completely wayward. And as far as I know Leica lenses for the M (and many others besides them) don't have to be "corrected".  

 

[tashley]

4 hours ago, UliWer said:

Well, I confess that I prefer it this way. Therefore I disable "lens correction" usually in Lightroom. 

I see no reason to conceal the characteristics of a lens - as long as the lens is not completely wayward. And as far as I know Leica lenses for the M (and many others besides them) don't have to be "corrected".  

 

For my use case they are sometimes really quite wayward. I am fine with that - there  are clear upsides most of the time - but my question was very clearly not about that. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by tashley

[tashley]

Hmmm.... On those lenses where distortion really IS an issue (in some shots at least) lens corrections would be really useful. What is odd is that not only are they not working in LR or in the latest version of Camera Raw, but that they are not applied to the in-camera JPEGs either.

Is this a bug I haven't heard about?

See example below with complex moustache distortion taken on a WATE at 16mm F8... it was perfectly level but not quite perfectly square to the building, and this has emphasised the problem.

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[tashley]

On reflection may be the answer to the above is that the JPEG isn’t corrected because it’s the WATE and the camera doesn’t know which focal length was selected. 

[tom0511]

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I realized the same

Am 1.2.2022 um 19:39 schrieb tashley:

Am I being thick or do they for some reason not work? I see that under Optics, the check boxes are there for CA and distortion correction and that it generally (not for my 28mm Summaron but for the others) auto selects the correct lens, but it isn't applying any corrections. If I search my LR catalog for M10-R files with the same lenses, the corrections apply and un-apply when I check the relevant box but with the M11 they do nothing. Odd really: I get that it's a new camera and that it doesn't yet have a LR profile but the corrections are just geometry and for a frame of the same aspect ration you'd expect them to work?

 

Any thoughts?

I found the same behaviour and I assume it is something that should be fixed. I wonder if it is a lightroom ro Leica thing. If the jpg dont include the correction, than this cant be a problem of Lightroom?

Edited February 9, 2022 by tom0511

[tashley]

I have now run some more checks and found the following:

With the WATE, even if you select the actual focal length you are using manually in the camera's menu, there are no corrections applied to the JPEG and there are no LR corrections available..

With none of my other lenses, all coded and correctly identified by the camera, is there any lens distortion correction applied to the JPEGS in camera and none is available for the DNG in LR.

So at the moment the best course is going to be to shoot DNG and to hope that the corrections arrive in LR (and I suppose other raw processing software) soon... because shooting JPEG isn't going to help. It just seems to be the case that no profile correction files have been supplied yet for the M11.

 

[erudolph]

Release notes for the Lightroom Classic 11.2 release and for the latest Camera Raw have no mention of the M11.

 

https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/kb/camera-raw-plug-supported-cameras.html

[UliWer]

Having no M11 I cannot try this, but isn't it possible to trick LR?

When I don't choose the (color) profile for the M10, but just "Adobe Color" , the corrections of distortion for Leica lenses work. 

So, can't you apply lens correction if you also choose a "wrong" profile for the M11, like "Adobe Color" ? With "Abobe Color" I can apply three - different - corrections for the three  focal lengths of the Wate. 

[tashley]

18 minutes ago, UliWer said:

Having no M11 I cannot try this, but isn't it possible to trick LR?

When I don't choose the (color) profile for the M10, but just "Adobe Color" , the corrections of distortion for Leica lenses work. 

So, can't you apply lens correction if you also choose a "wrong" profile for the M11, like "Adobe Color" ? With "Abobe Color" I can apply three - different - corrections for the three  focal lengths of the Wate. 

Nice idea - thank you - but I'm afraid it doesn't work....

[M11 for me]

One thing not to forget: As long as the M11 is not fully supported one might use the manual sliders in Lightroom to correct distorsions if that should be necessary for a specific image. But I believe that in "normal" use that will not be necessary. 

[Tailwagger]

I did a small bit of sleuthing into this. Initially it seemed as likely it was an LR problem given it recognized the lenses but refused to apply any corrections, however, I checked the DNG spec and it seems theres a possibility that this is indeed a Leica bug. From the spec:

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From this one might hypothesize that the necessary info isn't being stored in the DNG. If that is the case then I'm afraid updating LR/CR won't make any difference. As an aside is anyone using C1 seeing corrections applied?  Of course, it's also possible that LR is ignoring any relevant data stored and an update is needed on their side. Really required going into the DNG to see if the data is supplied or not. I downloaded a DNG dump utility and took a look at a file from the M10-R and one from the M11 and lo... the tags were exactly the same. Neither seemed to supply any opcodes. Head scratch.  So unfortunately at this point I've not been able to uncover enough evidence to point at one party or the other. 

 

[M11 for me]

Just read the Reid Review part 3 that was published today. I am a bit mixed up as he describes the corrections as if they would work correctly . . . Maybe I misunderstood.

[tashley]

11 hours ago, M11 for me said:

One thing not to forget: As long as the M11 is not fully supported one might use the manual sliders in Lightroom to correct distorsions if that should be necessary for a specific image. But I believe that in "normal" use that will not be necessary. 

That works acceptably for simple distortions like for example on the 35FLE but for complex moustache style distortions like the image I posted above, a bespoke profile for the particular lens is needed. Sadly…

[tashley]

11 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

I did a small bit of sleuthing into this. Initially it seemed as likely it was an LR problem given it recognized the lenses but refused to apply any corrections, however, I checked the DNG spec and it seems theres a possibility that this is indeed a Leica bug. From the spec:

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From this one might hypothesize that the necessary info isn't being stored in the DNG. If that is the case then I'm afraid updating LR/CR won't make any difference. As an aside is anyone using C1 seeing corrections applied?  Of course, it's also possible that LR is ignoring any relevant data stored and an update is needed on their side. Really required going into the DNG to see if the data is supplied or not. I downloaded a DNG dump utility and took a look at a file from the M10-R and one from the M11 and lo... the tags were exactly the same. Neither seemed to supply any opcodes. Head scratch.  So unfortunately at this point I've not been able to uncover enough evidence to point at one party or the other. 

 

I believe that the lens profiles themselves need tweaking and that support for them will therefore have to be incorporated when they’re ready. But thank you for looking into this in such detail - it’s a bit of a head-scratcher!

[M11 for me]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb tashley:

That works acceptably for simple distortions like for example on the 35FLE but for complex moustache style distortions like the image I posted above, a bespoke profile for the particular lens is needed. Sadly…

Here you are right. I was just on your beautiful homepage with all your wonderful pictures. You must like to work until the result is perfect. For me this is similar and absolutly part of photography. I love to work in Lightroom. And with your results we dcan see that it is worth it.

[Edax]

Load a lens profile from another make (e.g. Zeiss ZM Distagon 35mm f/1.4) and both distortion and vignetting sliders do visibly work.

Did you try to shoot with lens profile off in camera, and adding the proper one in Lightroom?

[tashley]

9 hours ago, Edax said:

Load a lens profile from another make (e.g. Zeiss ZM Distagon 35mm f/1.4) and both distortion and vignetting sliders do visibly work.

Did you try to shoot with lens profile off in camera, and adding the proper one in Lightroom?

These are interesting ideas! It is indeed possible to make some (but for some reason, not all) profiles for other lenses work but sadly it doesn't do much good: if a lens has simple barrel or pincushion distortion then for most uses the manual distortions slider will do a good enough job. For example on the 35 FLE, usually around +4 to +6 works on architectural images. But if the distortion is more complex, like on the WATE, then no other lens' profile is going to be the right fit. I had a good fiddle with some ultra wides profiles from Samyang and Voigtlander which I remember as having moustache distortion, but the results weren't suitable. 

With the M11 you cannot shoot with lens detection off: if the lens is coded, the camera will detect it regardless of what menu setting you make. This is described in the manual and a brief experiment proves it to be true.

I emailed Sean Reid about his comments and he kindly replied that he was aware that lens profiles should be in Lightroom soon and therefore he was future-proofing the articles.

So for now there isn't a solution. I suspect that the problem might be as follows:

The lens corrections have three components: Vignetting, Distortion and Chromatic Aberration. Of these, the first two should merely be a question of using the existing look ups, because they are affected by sensor size and aspect ratio, not by resolution. The third, CA, does change with resolution: as Jono pointed out elsewhere, if you had 2 pixels of CA fringe on a 20mp sensor then you'll have three or four on a 60mp sensor. This will vary according to the lens and therefore they will need to provide new data for these profiles to Adobe.

One correction I wish to make to something I wrote above: I never, ever shoot JPEG (unless testing a hypothesis about something or other) so from memory, in previous digital M cameras, the JPEGS have lens corrections applied in a 'baked in' way. But when I check my enormous back catalog for shots where I have simultaneous JPEG and DNG files, I find that this is not true, though if the camera processors allowed it, it would seem to me to be a good idea, at least as an option.

Edited February 10, 2022 by tashley

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[Adam Bonn]

AFAIK

Leica doesn't correct for distortion in jpegs only 'Italian flag' issues.. 

C1 doesn't automatically apply lens correction profiles for Leica

Even if you don't shoot jpeg, they can be extracted from the DNG using exiftool/etc

The DNG spec might suggest where to store lens info/corrections but Leica either might not include this (proprietary) info or they put it in maker notes. Either way adobe should be able to read it (adobe update needed methinks)