Would you buy an EVF only camera with an M mount?

[wizard]

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb pgk:

Being used in strong sunlight is still a problem with EVFs in my experience so far

Why is that? I fully concur that using a preview screen in bright sunlight is close to hopeless, but once we are talking EVF, you do have a "finder" so to speak, which should not be affected by bright sunlight. My only EVF camera is an Olympus bridge camera, but I am actually quite pleased with its EVF.

[Tailwagger]

10 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I’m surprised that the potential for an internal rather than external EVF gives rise to so many suggestions that an MEVF should have so many other functions that are not part of the M ecosystem.

Well, the question becomes, just who is this camera for? Clearly, for all the arguing over the past half decade on this subject, it has little to no appeal to traditionalists, at least conceptually.  The target Leica audience in my estimation is made up of a sub group of M owners along side SL owners who shoot primarily with M lenses. Beyond these folks, there is a large pool of CaNiFuSon  owners shooting adapted M lenses, be they Leica, CV, Zeiss or others. To attract those in this latter category might require a feature set that resembles the more general purpose nature of the camera. I've zero interest in video for example and really would prefer it were excluded from the package, but if its inclusion broadens the audience and helps get the camera built, I'm ok with it. 

[Tailwagger]

5 minutes ago, wizard said:

Why is that? I fully concur that using a preview screen in bright sunlight is close to hopeless, but once we are talking EVF, you do have a "finder" so to speak, which should not be affected by bright sunlight. My only EVF camera is an Olympus bridge camera, but I am actually quite pleased with its EVF.

Side light/glare has always be a problem with every EVF system I've ever owned for those who wear glasses. 

[wizard]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Tailwagger:

... for those who wear glasses. 

Ahh, I do wear glasses, but don't use them when photographing, so no issues here.

[Tailwagger]

13 minutes ago, wizard said:

Ahh, I do wear glasses, but don't use them when photographing, so no issues here.

The issue, for those that do, is far more manageable with an M given the OVF and with a convention mirrorless camera given autofocus. But when forced to focus manually through an EVF there are bound to be times when it will be a PITA.

[lct]

11 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I’m surprised that the potential for an internal rather than external EVF gives rise to so many suggestions that an MEVF should have so many other functions that are not part of the M ecosystem.

+1. The best way to get nothing is to ask for too much. See the "CL2" that some good people were advocating with IBIS at the same price or less as the CL... Now contrary to what some highly respectable colleagues with rock solid hands and/or strong tripods and/or deep wishful thinkings are suggesting here  (just kidding), IBIS is indispensable on high res cameras if there is enough room in the body for that. Would be interesting to check in a body the same size as the M240 with a built-in EVF in lieu of the RF. I'm referring to the M240 because my A7r2 with IBIS has almost the same thickness as my M240 except the handgrip.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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10 hours ago, pgk said:

It is a real pain with flash forcing exposure to be put into manual and relying on experience yet again. For some of my photography flash is the main/fill illuminant .....

Agreed. I would have liked to be able to turn it off completely as well. But we had no control at all on the 601 and a few of us had to do some serious jumping up and down. I even sent emails. Detailed emails. On the very much a plus side Leica took our small noisy group seriously and implemented no exposure simulation in M mode. That's where I am 90% of the time in studio, so I was/am OK with the solution Leica offered. If they added turning of exposure preview in the other modes as well I wouldn't complain though.

Back to the E11......

The reason *I* think Leica may look at other technologies is because it's not an M. The M has a LOT of people, me included to some extent, that do want to keep the experience relatively pure. I like IBIS. But in my M's I see it as part of the cahllenge of having better technique, not a missing feature. Look at the kerfuffel having video had on the M240 or the expose off the shutter on the M11. The E11 is clearly not an M, regardless of where the viewfinder is, so it doesn't need to be as pure. Also it's a way of testing the waters for these technologies. Leica has some cool ideas like perspective control and highlight metering. I want to encorage this stuff while also having the M be an M.

I know I can get a lot of this already with an SL2. But it's not the same experience. A Q2 using manual focus is nothing like a SL2 with a 28mm 'cron. I'm loving my M11. But in a heartbeat I'd add another camera that operated like the Q2, had the IBIS of the SL2 and the sensor straight from the M11, with the vario resolution. I know I can add the EVF to my M11. Again, it's not the same experience. I'd love the PiP focusing aids that Fuji and other use as well as magnify and peaking. And maybe, just maybe Leica would gift us a flippy screen. The three way tech from Panasonic would be nice....

If Leica would make me a Q2 with a 50mm and one with a 90, I wouldn't want an E11 so much. But they haven't, so I do. I may even get all of them if it's available.

Gordon

[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

If Leica would make me a Q2 with a 50mm and one with a 90, I wouldn't want an E11 so much. But they haven't, so I do. I may even get all of them if it's available.

When I was working, me too... now that I'm retired an E11 (is that what we're calling it now... what happened to the other 10?)  for use with my existing optics seems more financially sound. 

[Krusty]

Hi all, 

currently I have the Q2 and the M11 with the new Visoflex 2 EVF. For me, I am much faster when I use the classic M11 viewfinder instead of the EVF... With the classic viewfinder it is more clear to know in which direction I have to turn the focus wheel.

i have an idea for a different approach:

a completely new designed Leica CL with

• the current 60 Megapixel Sensor,
• the look and feel of the Leica Q2 (Q2 looks almost like a small M-Camera but interchangeable Lenses are not possible due to the central shutter which is in the Lens)
• and - that is not a joke - the L-Mount, (with M-Adapter and Autofocus for L-Lenses)

Why the L-Mount? Due to the smaller flange back distance of the L-Mount compared to the M-Mount you can use an Adapter to use a M-Lens on that camera (as we can do on the SL2).

The SL2 can already do the same as an M-Mount EVF-Camera would be able to do... But it has not the size, weight, appearance and operating-concept what an EVF-M should have... (e.g. with the SL2 you have not dedicated wheels to set the shutter, ISO etc. when the camera is switched off) The concept of the Q is much closer to what we expect.

With that (let me say) CL2 you would be able to use your M-Lenses on a Camera which is operated and looks like the Q. And that is that, what some of us want as an EVF-M. And the best thing would be: You could mount also L-Mount lenses with Autofocus, Zoom and so on. Sony is able to build small cameras with interchangeable autofocus lenses and a full format sensor. The SL2 is like a Tank (especially the Reporter-Edition)

Or shrink the SL-3 and give it a more classic operation concept (dedicated wheel for Shutter and ISO, hyperfocal distance on fixed focal lenses...)

 

Regards.

 

 

[maidenfan84]

One bonus for sure on an EVF M camera would be the fact that they could finally implement a built in diopter. Saves Leica money of building the things and helps customers a lot because of their eyesight changes, they need a diopter initially, etc it helps them immensely 

[Krusty]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb maidenfan84:

One bonus for sure on an EVF M camera would be the fact that they could finally implement a built in diopter. Saves Leica money of building the things and helps customers a lot because of their eyesight changes, they need a diopter initially, etc it helps them immensely 

That is true...

[DBounce]

This is a good question and one I’m personally conflicted with. I’m resisting the idea of purchasing an EVF for two reasons:

• A desire to keep the camera small

 • To avoid becoming dependent on the EVF, effectively defeating the purpose of the rangefinder

 For these reasons I’m going to hold off from buying the EVF… I still struggle to avoid using the rear LCD.

Edited May 10, 2023 by DBounce

[jdlaing]

Would I buy an EVF only M mount camera? 
 

No. I would not. I prefer a straight rangefinder.

[lct]

1 hour ago, DBounce said:

This is a good question and one I’m personally conflicted with. I’m resisting the idea of purchasing an EVF for two reasons:

• A desire to keep the camera small

 • To avoid becoming dependent on the EVF, effectively defeating the purpose of the rangefinder

 For these reasons I’m going to hold off from buying the EVF… I still struggle to avoid using the rear LCD.

Both RF and EVF can be used on the M11. Both for the same shoot eventually. eg. fast prefocus with the RF and nail focus with the EVF with focus magnification if needed. Was'nt so true with earlier digital Ms whose LV mode was more sluggish.

[Photoworks]

23 hours ago, maidenfan84 said:

One bonus for sure on an EVF M camera would be the fact that they could finally implement a built in diopter. Saves Leica money of building the things and helps customers a lot because of their eyesight changes, they need a diopter initially, etc it helps them immensely 

Sure, but it would be a new camera, this will never be the M camera.

and for does people who like the idea of EVF only cameras with M lenses. Have you ever been successfully focusing fast and correctly at f8 true the EVF?

it is a fantasy, try it whit a 21mm.  It is easy wide open if you have fast lenses, but if the f stop starts at 3.4 or 5.6 it is like stumbling in the dark even on the SL2 that has a real good evf.

Just my 2 cent.

[Krusty]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Photoworks:

Sure, but it would be a new camera, this will never be the M camera.

and for does people who like the idea of EVF only cameras with M lenses. Have you ever been successfully focusing fast and correctly at f8 true the EVF?

it is a fantasy, try it whit a 21mm.  It is easy wide open if you have fast lenses, but if the f stop starts at 3.4 or 5.6 it is like stumbling in the dark even on the SL2 that has a real good evf.

Just my 2 cent.

That I a good point… as you always have the working aperture instead of automatic aperture of SLRs which is always fully open an closes when you press the shutter (or like the Q). E.g when you use a flash in dark environments and you have an aperture f5.6 it will be much harder to focus than with a optical Viewfinder or a automatic aperture lens

[lct]

5 hours ago, Photoworks said:

for does people who like the idea of EVF only cameras with M lenses. Have you ever been successfully focusing fast and correctly at f8 true the EVF?

I do this all the time with mirrorless cameras. No problem with the M11 either. M11 + Visoflex 2 + Summicron 28/2 focused handheld at f/8 (FF and crop):

https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-Leica-282/i-Bmtjsqv/0/2d27d922/X4/L1006811_sips-X4.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-Leica-282/i-6dJQWns/0/19620bb3/X4/L1006811_sips_crop-X4.jpg

Same combo at f/16:
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-Leica-282/i-FgWBn7R/0/451099d6/X4/L1006819_sips-X4.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-Leica-282/i-3fvFMSk/0/c4998774/X4/L1006819_sips_crop-X4.jpg

 

 

 

[lct]

8 hours ago, Photoworks said:

it is a fantasy, try it whit a 21mm.  It is easy wide open if you have fast lenses, but if the f stop starts at 3.4 or 5.6 it is like stumbling in the dark even on the SL2 that has a real good evf.

Not on my mirrorless cameras (Sony A7r2 mod, Leica digital CL) and neither on the M 11 in LV mode. Here M11 + Visoflex 2 + ZM 21/4.5 @ f/8. I have several pics like that. 

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[jaapv]

My Voigtländer 12 mm and Super Elmar 18 don’t exhibit it this behaviour. 

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Hallo,

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