M11 with a Noctilux in broad daylight without an ND filter... really?

[setuporg]

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So this claim, of true, would be exciting.

BUT, apparently that's using electronic shutter.

Which on M11 has a readout of 1/10 sec.

What does it mean to have an exposure of 1/16,000th of a second with a slow readout time?

Will we still get waves/banding?

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[SrMi]

3 minutes ago, setuporg said:

So this claim, of true, would be exciting.

BUT, apparently that's using electronic shutter.

Which on M11 has a readout of 1/10 sec.

What does it mean to have an exposure of 1/16,000th of a second with a slow readout time?

Will we still get waves/banding?

I have noticed some bending on my handheld X1D (1/3 readout), but only with longer lenses. Otherwise, it is perfectly handholdable with the electronic shutter. AFAIK many Sony a7rIV owners use electronic shutters without any issues. The main problems are still banding in artificial light and fast subject motion. 

[setuporg]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

The main problems are still banding in artificial light and fast subject motion. 

Like, yeah!  We're talking about a different shutter.  What if they are moving?  Can it be confirmed that it's a near-perfect replacement for ND filters, or there are caveats?  Moving how fast?  Urban setups?  From a car? 

[digitalfx]

Broad daylight? I generally shoot with my Noctilux when the lighting is not so harsh...golden hour or in more subdued daylight or shadows. In those situations I can ditch the ND.

Regardless we've gained nearly 2 stops over M10...that can make a huge difference with the Noctilux. Then on top of that the electronic shutter is yet another completely usable option.  Options are good.

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, setuporg said:

Like, yeah!  We're talking about a different shutter.  What if they are moving?  Can it be confirmed that it's a near-perfect replacement for ND filters, or there are caveats?  Moving how fast?  Urban setups?  From a car? 

Because of shallow DOF, I do not think that you would shoot Nocti wide open with a fast moving subject.

[setuporg]

I'm thinking of the street photos in @Overgaard hallmark style, a person on a sidewalk, broad daylight, perfectly frozen in the moment and separated from the background.

Edited January 27, 2022 by setuporg

[digitalfx]

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If you want to shoot in broad daylight, especially in the summer you will need to use the electronic shutter. 

There is nothing wrong with using an electronic shutter in broad daylight, just need to be aware of its limitations. In the situation you describe it works well

[ymc226]

50 minutes ago, setuporg said:

So this claim, of true, would be exciting.

BUT, apparently that's using electronic shutter.

Which on M11 has a readout of 1/10 sec.

What does it mean to have an exposure of 1/16,000th of a second with a slow readout time?

Will we still get waves/banding?

A basic question as I know nothing about electronic shutter operation. If the actual electronic shutter speed is 1/16,000 sec but the read out is 1/10 sec, does one still have to hold the camera still for 1/10 sec to prevent blur of a static subject?

[setuporg]

1 minute ago, ymc226 said:

A basic question as I know nothing about electronic shutter operation. If the actual electronic shutter speed is 1/16,000 sec but the read out is 1/10 sec, does one still have to hold the camera still for 1/10 sec to prevent blur of a static subject?

Yeah!  And what does it mean to have a 1/16,000 sec exposure if a 1/10 sec readout blurs it?  Isn't it then a kinda 1/10 sec?

[SrMi]

23 minutes ago, setuporg said:

Yeah!  And what does it mean to have a 1/16,000 sec exposure if a 1/10 sec readout blurs it?  Isn't it then a kinda 1/10 sec?

Every pixel is exposed 1/16,000 sec but the delay from top to bottom is 1/10 sec. The bottom pixel is readout 1/10 sec later than the top one.

[SrMi]

32 minutes ago, ymc226 said:

A basic question as I know nothing about electronic shutter operation. If the actual electronic shutter speed is 1/16,000 sec but the read out is 1/10 sec, does one still have to hold the camera still for 1/10 sec to prevent blur of a static subject?

Yes. If you move the cameras, it is the same as if the subject moves.

P.S.: it is actually 1/10 sec + exposure length + shutter lag.

Edited January 27, 2022 by SrMi

[setuporg]

every pixel is what you want it to be, but from first to last pixel it's 1/10!  You can have a perfectly exposed line though!  A very thin one!

Hmm...  I'm wondering how binning affects the readout/blur...

Edited January 27, 2022 by setuporg

[orcinus]

Sigma FP has similar readout rate, but no mechanical shutter, so that's the only thing you get.

I've been using it a lot, exclusively with Voigtlaender lenses, up to 75mm these past couple of years, for street photography.
It's okay during the day - haven't had a single case of visible wobble or waves or skews, but then, i didn't take photos of fast moving things, just buildings and people.

For night photography it's a bit of a mess, however, especially under sodium or LED lighting.

That tells me that M11 should be perfectly usable - as you can use the mechanical shutter during night shooting

[SrMi]

1 minute ago, Artin said:

Ok I don’t understand this ? You mean to say that every single electronic shutter exposure is 1/10 of a second ? Form the top of the frame to the bottom? 

It takes 1/10 sec + shutter speed to complete the exposure. Every pixel is exposed as the shutter speed specifies. The image will not be blurred as if you shot with 1/10 sec. 

[Stevejack]

12 minutes ago, Artin said:

Ok I don’t understand this ? You mean to say that every single electronic shutter exposure is 1/10 of a second ? Form the top of the frame to the bottom? 

Each pixel is exposed for whatever you have your exposure set for - but yes the total time it takes to expose all pixels on the sensor is ~ 1/10sec. That's why you'll see distortion using e-shutter on fast moving objects, and why you need to use mechanical shutter for motocross / birds in flight / anything where you have to move the camera, or the subject itself is in motion.

So yes you can shoot the noctilux wide open with the M11 but if you need to be in e-shutter to get the exposure time correct, the subject will need to be still or moving slowly. 1/10sec is around the same time it takes to blink.

[ymc226]

35 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Yes. If you move the cameras, it is the same as if the subject moves.

P.S.: it is actually 1/10 sec + exposure length + shutter lag.

That’s too bad. Hopefully, advancements in technology will allow vanishing readout speeds. I recently read on LUF that the M8 had an 1/8000 shutter speed but was not continued on the M9 due to durability concerns. I would gladly trade the 1/16,000s electronic shutter for a 1/8,000s mechanical shutter.

[SrMi]

1 minute ago, ymc226 said:

That’s too bad. Hopefully, advancements in technology will allow vanishing readout speeds. I recently read on LUF that the M8 had an 1/8000 shutter speed but was not continued on the M9 due to durability concerns. I would gladly trade the 1/16,000s electronic shutter for a 1/8,000s mechanical shutter.

To clarify: you do not need to hold the camera still as if you were shooting at 1/10 sec.

[Stevejack]

20 minutes ago, Artin said:

ok so the exposure will be fine it just will take 1/10 of a second for the camera to complete the  exposure, I don’t have an issue with that 

For some years the high end sports cameras have used e-shutters which don't suffer from this effect at all. I used the Sony A9 and now the Sony a1 and their sensors are designed around the issue. When I picked up the A7RIV briefly, it was unusable for motocross and fast moving birds in flight unless I was using the mechanical shutter. I'm often shooting at 1/8000sec so mech shutter is useless to me.  

I'm sure one day Leica will use the same sensor design as the sports cameras (or a global shutter instead) but for now the expense just wouldn't be worth it for what the Leica's are used for. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Stevejack

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[ymc226]

11 minutes ago, SrMi said:

To clarify: you do not need to hold the camera still as if you were shooting at 1/10 sec.

Sorry for my ignorance but I appreciate your time.  If the electronic shutter reads sequentially the top lines down to the bottom line over 1/10s, wouldn’t there be blur If I moved the camera or the subject moved during this time? Or am I misunderstanding the situation and the electronic shutter captures every part of the sensor instantaneously but it takes 1/10s to “dump” all the information into the buffer so any movement would be inconsequential?

[Stevejack]

26 minutes ago, ymc226 said:

Sorry for my ignorance but I appreciate your time.  If the electronic shutter reads sequentially the top lines down to the bottom line over 1/10s, wouldn’t there be blur If I moved the camera or the subject moved during this time? Or am I misunderstanding the situation and the electronic shutter captures every part of the sensor instantaneously but it takes 1/10s to “dump” all the information into the buffer so any movement would be inconsequential?

I know this isn't directed to me, but no there won't be blur - there will be distortion. As part of the scene moves during the exposure, the image will appear "warped".