Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]

[evikne]

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9 minutes ago, AlanJW said:

I doo not see it substituting for the optical system but it would be a dynamite complement in the M system (even if it is called something other than "M" because it is not a "Messucher").

M is no longer just "Messsucher". M can be anything: 😊

https://leica-camera.com/en-int/photography/m/m-is

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[raizans]

14 minutes ago, evikne said:

M is no longer just "Messsucher". M can be anything: 😊

https://leica-camera.com/en-int/photography/m/m-is

I would give anything to hear Alan Rickman recite this:

“M-Photography is more than just capturing a moment; it's about capturing the emotion, the essence, and the soul behind that moment. Since 1954, the Leica M has been part of history. It’s more than a camera – it’s an icon of design, a testament to unparalleled vision, and a bridge connecting profound creativity with precision. It's a witness to history, graced by the hands of legends. When you hold a Leica M, you're embracing a legacy. A legacy of emotions, artistry, and compelling stories. Above all M is not just a letter; it's a feeling, an era, and a voice.  

In short: A one-of-a-kind Rangefinder Camera System. The Leica M fascinates photographers and enthusiasts all over the world with its Design, Made in Germany Quality and the legendary Leica Brand. From the first camera until today. Because an M is an M and remains an M. 

Discover the Magic!”

[M11 for me]

I like an EVF. But - and its not a joke - whenever I have the Visoflex 2 on my M11 I still look through the OVF when its about focussing. I love this precise rangfinder system where you immediately see when focus is right and you know immediately wether to turn the focus ring to the right or to the left. An EVF can never give me that precision. So I might say today that I would certainly buy an "EVF only" M camera, but at the same time I think: "what is wrong with the Visoflex? Why not have the OVF plus that EVF?" If I should have to make that decision just now (and not just write some blablabla) I imagine that I would prefer OVF on a manual focussing body plus Visoflex.

[lct]

An M is just a camera with an M mount and there is nothing wrong with the Visoflex. Suffice it to put it inside instead of outside the body and you have an EVF-M. Only problem is how many people are prepared to pay Leica prices for such a mirrorless camera with no rangefinder. Count me in but how many LUF members would follow me now that the M11 offers all what an EVF-M would do aside from a bump on top of the camera.

Edited October 28, 2023 by lct

[Smogg]

When I shoot through OVF, I stop time and capture this moment on digital media. When I shoot through EVF, I select a frame from the movie. Completely different feelings. For me, a digital viewfinder is useful, but only for accurate framing in exceptional cases

[Smogg]

After the removal of SLR cameras from production, we have a unique and extraordinary advantage - we see life through the eyepiece as it is, and not digital cinema. In addition, we focus faster with minimal light, we just need to find any vertical strip

[lct]

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3 minutes ago, Smogg said:

[...] we see life through the eyepiece as it is [...]

The only camera which gave me this feeling is the Epson R-D1 with its 1:1 VF. The M3 comes close with 0.91x but modern 0.68x or 0.73x M cameras just show a wide view of the life. It is this or the WYSIWYG experience of electronic VFs. Matter of tastes as usual.

[Smogg]

3 minutes ago, lct said:

The only camera which gave me this feeling is the Epson R-D1 with its 1:1 VF. The M3 comes close with 0.91x but modern 0.68x or 0.73x M cameras just show a wide view of the life. It is this or the WYSIWYG experience of electronic VFs. Matter of tastes as usual.

We do not live in an ideal world, it is only 73 percent of our expectations😂

[PGuy]

Perhaps this question is better in making the SL line more slimmer like M versus other way around?

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, Smogg said:

After the removal of SLR cameras from production, we have a unique and extraordinary advantage - we see life through the eyepiece as it is, and not digital cinema. In addition, we focus faster with minimal light, we just need to find any vertical strip

Actually with an SLR you are looking at a screen instead of reality as well. 

[la1402]

For me, IBIS would be a huge benefit. EVF would come second. So yes, I would buy an M with EVF only - provided it has IBIS. 

[sdk]

I love my M11, as I loved my Leica M-P digital, M9-P, and film M7, M6-TTL cameras before it. I find myself using the rangefinder and viewfinder less and less over time, so I would be the ideal target for a camera that used M lenses but had only an EVF. This would be somewhat more compact for me because I always have the Visoflex 2 attached to my M11 for composition and critical focus (the M-P's EVF is not quite good enough for reliable focusing but great for composing). As for the name, perhaps something like Leica EM? 

[sdk]

And I refuse to engage in magical thinking about cameras. Leica M cameras are a photographic tool, nothing more. There's absolutely nothing magical about any of them from the M3 to the M11-P. They may be elegant, compact, and capable of precise use, but they and their lenses are physical things and obey the laws of optics. In the hands of a skilled or inspired photographer they can make excellent images, as can a Nikon, a Canon, or a Pentax, or a Deardorff, etc. And they are not great for macro photography. My Ricoh GRIII is a better macro camera than my M11 will ever be, and my Nikon D850 is a wizard tool for focus stacking macro shooting. Choose the best tool for your use. For general photography the M series are a great choice, an expensive choice, but they have limitations, and you should be aware of them.

Edited October 28, 2023 by sdk

[algrove]

To answer the OP's question

 

YES

BUT I will still keep my M11 and M11M

[thrid]

No. 

I have yet to see an EVF with a refresh rate high enough, where you do not experience lag, strobing and other artifacts.

Just recently I checked out a Nikon Z9, Z8, Z6II, Leica SL2 and Q.

The Z9 was by far the best of the bunch, but I'd still take a DSLR any day of the week. Or the M with its optical rangefinder.

It's just not there yet for capturing fast action in a split second.

As a result your only option is to spray and pray and in the case of the Z9 at 20fps. Which is guess is fine, but do you really want to deal with that amount of data every time you attempt to capture the decisive moment? And where is the 'skill' in that? Any monkey can machine-gun a shot at 20fps and end up with a winner. At some point you may as well shoot hires video and just grab the frames you want.

I feel that at this point the EVF is perfectly fine for still lives, landscapes, product shots, slow moving action, studio work etc

But I really don't think it's there yet for split second photography. Actually I know it isn't, because I tried it and for me it's not there, yet. Especially in a camera that isn't the size of a shoebox.

 

BUT being a realist I know that it is extremely likely that Leica will make an EVF M at some point. The demand from a very high percentage of their customers is just too high for them to ignore and eventually they will follow the money. 

I just pray that Leica also keeps the optical rangefinder model in production for the rest of us. That really would be the best of both worlds for everyone.

 

In general this has become a topic of concern for me personally.  

I personally do not feel that the EVF in current cameras offers the same experience as an optical viewing system for the type of work that I do. Nothing beats the speed of light.

In addition to the M I also shoot with a DSLR, but the number of DSLR remaining on the market is dwindling rapidly.  

Leica doesn't make a DSLR and the S will go EVF in its next iteration. That would leave the M-series as the last OVF camera Leica makes.

Canon has pretty much gone EVF, as has SONY and now Nikon.

I've been a Nikon shooter for many years and keep thinking that I should grab a Nikon D850 or D780, before they too get the axe.

Pentax seems committed to the DSLR and that may be a smart move. If they are the last game in town they will have a monopoly on that area of the market.

Fuji is all EVF, except for the X-Pro3 and X100, with their hybrid viewfinder.

 

In any case this is my option, based on my personal needs for my shooting style.

Your milage may vary.

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by thrid

[Erato]

FYR.

Keeping simplicity of M System will be a clever decision which ensures that photographers can focus on their gear without being overwhelmed by unnecessary functions.

With intuitive controls and a timeless, straightforward interface, it empowers photographers to focus on their creative vision without getting lost in a labyrinth of complicated settings.

Adding more features to the Leica M11, while potentially enticing for some customers, can have significant implications for supply chain management, product quality, and after-sales service. Here's a more in-depth analysis of these aspects:

• Supply Chain Management:
  • Complexity and Costs: Introducing additional features requires the procurement of more components and technologies. This can increase the complexity of the supply chain and raise production costs.
  • Sourcing Challenges: Specialized components may not be readily available, leading to longer lead times and potential bottlenecks in the manufacturing process.
• Sustainability Concerns: Expanding the supply chain may have environmental implications, as it can lead to increased resource consumption and transportation, potentially undermining sustainability efforts.
• Product Quality:
  • Quality Control: As more features are added, the potential for quality control issues increases. Ensuring that all components and functions meet Leica's quality standards becomes more challenging.
• Long-Term Reliability: Complicated features may be prone to more frequent breakdowns or malfunctions over time, affecting the camera's long-term reliability.
• User Experience: A feature-heavy camera may confuse users or lead to suboptimal usage due to the difficulty of mastering all functions.
• After-Sales Service:
  • Maintenance and Repairs: A more complex camera may require more intricate maintenance and repairs. This can increase costs for users and strain Leica's after-sales service in terms of repair times and availability of spare parts.
  • Customer Support: Customer support teams may face higher demands for assistance and troubleshooting, especially from users struggling to navigate a feature-rich camera.
  • Legacy Support: Leica's commitment to supporting older models may become more challenging as they must maintain parts and expertise for a wider array of features.

In light of these factors, Leica must carefully balance the desire for added features with the impact on supply chain efficiency, product quality, and after-sales service. Maintaining the integrity of the M System's core values, such as Reliability, Simplicity, and Availability, is essential to preserve the brand's heritage and satisfy its loyal customer base while ensuring sustainability and long-term success.

[Erato]

SWOT Analysis Summary:
The Leica M11 camera benefits from its strong brand heritage, characterized by Reliability, Simplicity, and Availability. However, expanding its feature set presents a delicate balancing act. While doing so may open up new markets and opportunities for innovation, it also introduces complexity, cost, and potential risks to quality and reliability. Striking the right balance between feature expansion and preserving the M System's core values is crucial for success. Leica must also address supply chain challenges and carefully manage customer expectations and user experience to maintain its market leadership.

[lct]

6 hours ago, thrid said:

have yet to see an EVF with a refresh rate high enough, where you do not experience lag, strobing and other artifacts.

[...]

It's just not there yet for capturing fast action in a split second. [...]

Different experience or expectations here. I got no significant lags with my Sony A7r2 mod and hardly more with my digital CL and the Visoflex of my M11. Good enough for me and i would not want more in the EVF-M. IBIS would be welcome though but this is another story. YMMV.

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[hdmesa]

7 hours ago, lct said:

Different experience or expectations here. I got no significant lags with my Sony A7r2 mod and hardly more with my digital CL and the Visoflex of my M11. Good enough for me and i would not want more in the EVF-M. IBIS would be welcome though but this is another story. YMMV.

The lags usually start when shooting several photos in a row quickly.

Leica could use a stacked sensor and employ the Nikon Z8/Z9 "dual stream" technology that drives two separate and simultaneous data feeds, one to live view, one to image capture. The result is the image viewed from the EVF/LCD is realtime and never interrupted by shooting. Every other camera currently on the market sends data to the EVF after it goes through the image capture pipeline.

I don't think this would be necessary to the success of an M with a built-in EVF, but it would be nice.

[thrid]

34 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

The lags usually start when shooting several photos in a row quickly.

Leica could use a stacked sensor and employ the Nikon Z8/Z9 "dual stream" technology that drives two separate and simultaneous data feeds, one to live view, one to image capture. The result is the image viewed from the EVF/LCD is realtime and never interrupted by shooting. Every other camera currently on the market sends data to the EVF after it goes through the image capture pipeline.

I don't think this would be necessary to the success of an M with a built-in EVF, but it would be nice.

The lag is always there, even when you are not taking shots, but just looking.

Take a Q, SL or something like a Nikon z7II and quickly pan back and forth. Raise it to your eye in a split second like you are taking a shot. Big lag.

It's ok for landscapes, still life work, product shots, studio work, slow to moderate speed action. But it falls apart if you're out there banging away like Gary Winogrand etc., which is the forte of the M-series.

The Nikon Z9 EVF is the best I have seen, but the camera is the size of a shoebox. It also doesn't always run at its highest refresh rate, but cranks it up depending on shooting circumstances to conserve battery. To get the shot you need to resort to spray and pray and in the case of the Z9 that's 20fps. So, to grab one moment you're going to rack up 20-60 RAW files? Every time?