Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]

[hdmesa]

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1 hour ago, thrid said:

The lag is always there, even when you are not taking shots, but just looking.

Take a Q, SL or something like a Nikon z7II and quickly pan back and forth. Raise it to your eye in a split second like you are taking a shot. Big lag.

It's ok for landscapes, still life work, product shots, studio work, slow to moderate speed action. But it falls apart if you're out there banging away like Gary Winogrand etc., which is the forte of the M-series.

The Nikon Z9 EVF is the best I have seen, but the camera is the size of a shoebox. It also doesn't always run at its highest refresh rate, but cranks it up depending on shooting circumstances to conserve battery. To get the shot you need to resort to spray and pray and in the case of the Z9 that's 20fps. So, to grab one moment you're going to rack up 20-60 RAW files? Every time?

Z8 also has dual feed. No lag on the Z8/Z9 that would make any difference for M style shooting. You can just as easily miss a critical moment with an optical viewfinder. Like I said, a dual feed setup would be best on an M12-EVF but I can live without it for what I shoot. It doesn't mean that an optical finder doesn't have an advantage in some cases, but there is a reason that DSLRs died long before the lag issue was resolved for mirrorless.

Edited October 29, 2023 by hdmesa
misspelling

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[Derbyshire Man]

Was reading Thorsen's article regarding the M11-P

https://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M11-digital-rangefinder-camera.html#The-Leica-M11-

 and how he feels the whole camera is a stepping stone to an EVF model.

Interestingly Stefan Daniel had said that EVF only makes sense with autofocus. Personally I spend 90% of my time on my Xpro3 on manual focus with focus peaking. If it didn't autofocus I don't think I'd be too bothered. WYSIWYG EVF with a compact rangefinder style body and lenses is for me much more important than AF.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Derbyshire Man

[ivohula]

The quality of the EVF is dependant upon the speed of the refresh rate, and, in my humble opinion, upon the speed of the processor and the design of data flow. With the price of the M12 expected to be much higher than any Z9 or A1, I think we can ask for a state of the art EVF. I think we can also ask for IBIS.

I do not buy into the mindset that we should settle for a camera a decade behind the current state of technology just because it is a Leica.

I have been using my SL2 with M lenses more and more as it fits with my mindset of using other EVF based cameras. I have recently used the new Fuji GFX100 II and its finder is fantastic; the autofocus less so. But the new M12 will cost 35% more than the GFX II so why expect less?

[Kim Dahl]

If resolution is not "better" than SL2 or only slightly better - I don't think I would.

I have used M lenses on the SL2 and find it easier to focus the wide angle 24-35mm on the RF.

One day it might be possible, but evf must really be good if it is to give more advantages than disadvantages.

[Smudgerer]

No.........Electronics and the software that drives them are still in my opinion Leica's Achilles's Heel, so to go for a M with even more electrons buzzing around inside wouldn't be an attractive or even sensible proposition for me, anyway I have yet to find an EVF that I like and trust in use, from Arri down on through the camera alphabet.

[IkarusJohn]

Let’s see - X2D, evf;  SL, evf;  TL2, evf add-on; M10-D, evf add-on.  Problems with what these caneras are designed for? No.  Actual problems in use? No.  On the contrary, they’re rather good.

Are there any technological problems taking the rangefinder out and putting an EVF in?  Well, I’d have thought not, given the extra space freed up - might even get an upgraded evf screen.  Other issues, bigger battery probably required, and faster processor.  Leica could even solve the M11 sound issue with an electronic first shutter, bringing back the lovely M10-P shutter sound.

Would this impact M-A, MP or M12 camera sales, with the traditional optical rangefinder?  Can’t imagine why, but I’m holding onto my M10-D!

[Qwertynm]

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Most of the stuff I shoot require me to use AF as I‘m not good, fast or accurate enough to do it manually. Rangefinder never clicked with me so a compact FF with stellar lenses and an EVF is something I could see myself buying once the kids slow down a bit and the Leica Eye-detect algo improves. It would be quite nice to have weathersealing too. So more of a SL ramgefinder type camera with M lenses to go compact or L lenses to go weather sealed. Until that happens I‘m happy with my Q3 and Canon R5 

[thrid]

On 10/29/2023 at 11:56 AM, hdmesa said:

Z8 also has dual feed. No lag on the Z8/Z9 that would make any difference for M style shooting.

Like I said, the Z9/Z8 EFV is by far the best I have seen and yes, it does not black out when you take a shot etc. But I still see lag compared to an OVF. Also keep in mind that the Z8/Z9 doesn't always run at 120 fps. It throttles the refresh rate deepening on what you're doing to conserve battery life.

Currently the EVF in none of the Leica cameras is even close to the Z9. I just tried out a SL2, Q2 and Nikon Z7II at the same store. The Leica EVF in both cameras were noticeably more sluggish that the Nikon Z7II, which is slower than the Z8/Z9

On 10/29/2023 at 11:56 AM, hdmesa said:

You can just as easily miss a critical moment with an optical viewfinder.

Of course, but at least you will see everything in realtime and at the speed of light. In that case missing the shot is dependent on the operator.

 

On 10/29/2023 at 11:56 AM, hdmesa said:

Like I said, a dual feed setup would be best on an M12-EVF but I can live without it for what I shoot. It doesn't mean that an optical finder doesn't have an advantage in some cases, but there is a reason that DSLRs died long before the lag issue was resolved for mirrorless.

The lag issue for mirrorless is not resolved for all types of shooting. If it was we wouldn't be having this conversation.

As I mentioned earlier it works fine for landscapes, still life work, product shots, most studio work and covering moderate action. If you are trying to cover fast moving action like sports you are going to have to rely in the extremely high frames rate that these cameras can capture.

It may work perfectly fine for you personally and your style of shooting. But at this point it does not work for me and the work I do.

Go on YouTube and watch one of the clips of someone like Winogrand shooting. There isn't an EVF on the market that is fast enough to keep up with that kind of shooting. 

[thrid]

On 10/30/2023 at 3:55 AM, Smudgerer said:

No.........Electronics and the software that drives them are still in my opinion Leica's Achilles's Heel, so to go for a M with even more electrons buzzing around inside wouldn't be an attractive or even sensible proposition for me, anyway I have yet to find an EVF that I like and trust in use, from Arri down on through the camera alphabet.

I hear you. The EVF on my Alexa Classic is first rate, but the viewfinder alone costs as much as an M11,... and it still isn't as fast as the OVF on my 1936 Mitchell NC-R.

 

Coincidentally the Arri finder uses the same dual feed approach as the Z9

[lct]

8 minutes ago, thrid said:

[...] If you are trying to cover fast moving action like sports you are going to have to rely in the extremely high frames rate that these cameras can capture.

How often did you do that with an M camera if i may ask?

[thrid]

6 minutes ago, lct said:

How often did you do that with an M camera if i may ask?

Not a lot of sports, but plenty of puddle jumpers.

 

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Here's Garry Winogrand shooting football with a 28mm on a Leica M.

Austin, Texas (football game) Garry Winogrand Portfolio, Hyperion Press, 1978, 1974

Edited October 31, 2023 by thrid

[IkarusJohn]

Your mileage obviously varies, but speaking personally, I would have no trouble capturing either shot with my SL, X2D or M10-D (with evf attached).  With practise, there’s nothing impossible with an EVF in either shot.

Incidentally, Cartier Bresson maintained he took his puddle jumping shot just poking his camera through the fence - no viewfinder at all (though, if you believe that, you believe anything)

[setuporg]

No.  No effin' way.  (Just making sure this thread always ends on a high note.)

[Smudgerer]

2 hours ago, thrid said:

I hear you. The EVF on my Alexa Classic is first rate, but the viewfinder alone costs as much as an M11,... and it still isn't as fast as the OVF on my 1936 Mitchell NC-R.

 

Coincidentally the Arri finder uses the same dual feed approach as the Z9

Well, up to last year I was an Aaton owner, Xtera S16 kit plus a 35 Penelope kit that I sold the year before, so with those beautiful VF's I guess there's no wonder I find any EVF lacking......And the Penelope's orient-able / heated Extension zoom VF cost far more when I added it to the kit new than a M11+50 'Lux costs at today's €€$$.

There's nothing to beat a good EVF, Aaton, Arri, Pana, and so on, but times have changed and EVF's rule now.

Sure, I'm very familiar with the Arri finders I find them much better than the Red's, but for me any EVF lies to your eye, cinematography or stills, but luckily the DIT and post colour correction / timing is still there to save your arse.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Smudgerer
grammar

[algrove]

On 10/29/2023 at 1:25 PM, thrid said:

The lag is always there, even when you are not taking shots, but just looking.

Take a Q, SL or something like a Nikon z7II and quickly pan back and forth. Raise it to your eye in a split second like you are taking a shot. Big lag.

It's ok for landscapes, still life work, product shots, studio work, slow to moderate speed action. But it falls apart if you're out there banging away like Gary Winogrand etc., which is the forte of the M-series.

The Nikon Z9 EVF is the best I have seen, but the camera is the size of a shoebox. It also doesn't always run at its highest refresh rate, but cranks it up depending on shooting circumstances to conserve battery. To get the shot you need to resort to spray and pray and in the case of the Z9 that's 20fps. So, to grab one moment you're going to rack up 20-60 RAW files? Every time?

Using the M11 and sending images directly to the internal memory (not SD) makes for a faster experience.

[algrove]

On 10/31/2023 at 3:57 PM, setuporg said:

No.  No effin' way.  (Just making sure this thread always ends on a high note.)

YES

 

Now this is a positive note.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 11/1/2023 at 3:47 AM, thrid said:

Like I said, the Z9/Z8 EFV is by far the best I have seen and yes, it does not black out when you take a shot etc. But I still see lag compared to an OVF. Also keep in mind that the Z8/Z9 doesn't always run at 120 fps. It throttles the refresh rate deepening on what you're doing to conserve battery life.

Currently the EVF in none of the Leica cameras is even close to the Z9. I just tried out a SL2, Q2 and Nikon Z7II at the same store. The Leica EVF in both cameras were noticeably more sluggish that the Nikon Z7II, which is slower than the Z8/Z9

Of course, but at least you will see everything in realtime and at the speed of light. In that case missing the shot is dependent on the operator.

 

The lag issue for mirrorless is not resolved for all types of shooting. If it was we wouldn't be having this conversation.

As I mentioned earlier it works fine for landscapes, still life work, product shots, most studio work and covering moderate action. If you are trying to cover fast moving action like sports you are going to have to rely in the extremely high frames rate that these cameras can capture.

It may work perfectly fine for you personally and your style of shooting. But at this point it does not work for me and the work I do.

Go on YouTube and watch one of the clips of someone like Winogrand shooting. There isn't an EVF on the market that is fast enough to keep up with that kind of shooting. 

I suspect that you are one of maybe a dozen people in the whole universe who would care about this. There are bigger reasons for some not to use an EVF. For some, current EVF technology actually makes them feel sick or gives them headaches. It's a small but real group. But I suspect larger than those who care that light travels slightly faster than electrons. Like you, those people will just use a regular M.

As the over riding success of mirrorless has shown, most people, including sports and action photographers don't care. Most people just adapt, like they do with the length of a shutter press on a new camera, which has FAR more variation than the EVF feed. Or the time the curtain takes to open for an exposure. Or the time it takes for a mirror to move out of the way....

Actually, I'd have to look into that. Surely the time a mirror needs to move in an SLR is longer than the lag of a mirrorless EVF? Surely if you can shoot sports with that discrepancy, you can also adapt to an EVF. Actually, most people already have. It's not like people aren't shooting street with mirrorless cameras. Or action. Or sports. Or everything else. Not many sports shots on an M currently. Is there ANY field of photography where mirrorless photographers are regularly missing *the decisive moment* because of a feed delay?

And before anyone jumps in on the high speed shooting bandwagon, I'll remind you that sports shooters have been using motor drives for fifty years to get around system lag such as the mirrors or shutters in SLRs. Even M's had a motor drive available.

It'd also be an interesting comparison between the release delay in an older M3 shutter curtain versus what's happening in a mirrorless camera? Apart from the very obvious advantages of having much higher shutter speeds available for wide open shooting, is an M3 shutter curtain delay actually less than a SL2?

Gordon

[algrove]

So we can refresh at 120 on the SL2S. How many hz would it for there to be zero lag. I bet more than 480.

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[lct]

Myth or reality? Been using mirrorless camera for a dozen years now and i don't recall having missed a shot due to EVF lag so far. Fuji X-E2 + Skopar 21/4 from 2014 here.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-rbq3gPJ/0/b85f6016/X4/i-rbq3gPJ-X4.jpg

[algrove]

7 hours ago, lct said:

Myth or reality? Been using mirrorless camera for a dozen years now and i don't recall having missed a shot due to EVF lag so far. Fuji X-E2 + Skopar 21/4 from 2014 here.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-rbq3gPJ/0/b85f6016/X4/i-rbq3gPJ-X4.jpg

Come to think about the camera never misses, it's my brain and reaction time that sometimes misses.

Edited November 3, 2023 by algrove