Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]

[SrMi]

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1 minute ago, lct said:

Economic reasons then if i understand well so no technical reasons? 

I do not see any technical reason why an EVF could not replace rangefinder, though the EVF may be smaller than Visoflex and it would not tilt.

[jaapv]

2 minutes ago, lct said:

Economic reasons then if i understand well so no technical reasons? 

Both. And functional ones. 

[lct]

10 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Mike Evans reported much interest in an M with EVF among LSI members. Stefan Daniel said that the rangefinder concept will not change with M models but that Leica would consider building an EVF version of the M if there is enough interest.

How many would abandon a rangefinder M if an EVF-M were available?

Why abandoning? I would keep my M11 for example but others may wish to keep their film or digital M for the RF experience and go for an EVF-M for high res photography. 

[LocalHero1953]

If Leica just replaced the RF in a M with an EVF of the same or better standard than the Viso? Some might sell their RFs to buy the EVF version. But as sales to new buyers, and especially to those who are new to the M and to Leica I am sure it would outsell the RF version. If you're not familiar with the RF concept but have used an EVF in another camera, why would you buy the RF version when you can get the classic Leica body, taking the classic Leica lenses, with a focusing system you understand? It would expand the user base of the M lens system, and might even, eventually, tempt some to try the RF.

[pegelli]

The title of this thread is "Leica M11A with EVF & Autofocus?" For me an EVF is fine as long as Leica keeps producing M-cameras with a classical rangefinder/viewfinder. I think it's also doable (technically), enough room in the body to put an EVF where the VF/RF mechanism now resides.

But what's the idea on the "Autofocus" part of the question? Yes or no and if yes with a new M-mount AF line or a movable M-mount? Or would they put an L-mount on it?

[lct]

1 hour ago, pegelli said:

But what's the idea on the "Autofocus" part of the question? Yes or no and if yes with a new M-mount AF line or a movable M-mount? Or would they put an L-mount on it?

Questions to ask the OP i guess. The way i can foresee it, the EVF-M would simply be another M-mount camera. Could it use an AF adapter the same way as my Sony A7r2 with M lenses, i don't know because there would be registration distance and IBIS considerations in play but L-mount lenses could not be used any more on the EVF-M than on any other M-mount camera. 

[jaapv]

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4 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

If Leica just replaced the RF in a M with an EVF of the same or better standard than the Viso? Some might sell their RFs to buy the EVF version. But as sales to new buyers, and especially to those who are new to the M and to Leica I am sure it would outsell the RF version. If you're not familiar with the RF concept but have used an EVF in another camera, why would you buy the RF version when you can get the classic Leica body, taking the classic Leica lenses, with a focusing system you understand? It would expand the user base of the M lens system, and might even, eventually, tempt some to try the RF.

That might be possible but I suspect it would only attract buyers at a price substantially below the regular M. 

[LocalHero1953]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

That might be possible but I suspect it would only attract buyers at a price substantially below the regular M. 

We're into armchair CEO discussions here, but it would certainly cost a lot less to make, so they might maintain their profit margins. 

And have fewer complaints about miscalibrated RFs straight out of the factory.

[jaapv]

However, this thread is about an A7 clone in Leica shape.

[LocalHero1953]

2 minutes ago, jaapv said:

However, this thread is about an A7 clone in Leica shape.

Oh, yes, so it was! But that was last Wednesday.

[pegelli]

@lct I agree, in case the EVF-M has a fixed M-mount it would be impossible to put such an AF adapter inbetween and keep infinity focus. Therefore putting an L-mount on it (which has a shorter distance from mount to sensor) would have a couple of advantages:

1. It would allow L-mount lenses with AF to function
2. With a Techart style adapter it would lead to a hybrid MF (prefocus)/AF option with M-mount lenses
3. With the standard L to M-mount adapter (already existing from Leica) it would use MF with M-mount lenses

My bet would be that if anything is brought out it would be an EVF-M with a fixed M-mount, allthough if they would equip it with an L-mount it would provide more options to use different lenses and have a shot at AF with M-mount lenses

But I agree with @LocalHero1953, it's all "armchair CEO / product manager" talk and we'll just have to wait what Leica will and will not bring out in the future.

Edited December 10, 2022 by pegelli

[lct]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

However, this thread is about an A7 clone in Leica shape.

One cannot do auto image magnification with M lenses on a Sony. Strange that it is so difficult to understand. The EVF-M would simply have an M body with an EVF in lieu of the RF. With IBIS too but the M12 will have it too hopefully.

Edited December 10, 2022 by lct

[pgk]

19 hours ago, Al Brown said:

"Leica M lenses will never be autofocus."
         -- Peter Karbe, 2021.

(For those who do not know who Karbe is, from Leica website: "Peter Karbe perfectly represents this “non-quantifiable human element” at Leica. He and his colleagues at the department of optical engineering are responsible for the evolution of the M-System and the M-Lenses. They are laying the foundations so that new M-Lenses can be produced from a unique combination of high-technology and craftsmanship.")

Of course Leica could adoprt the Contax AX approach - autofocus within the camera body - tricky but by no means impossible  if they were to utilise a hybrid coarse manual focus and subsequent precise autofocus. Just sayin'😉.

[lct]

1 hour ago, pegelli said:

Therefore putting an L-mount on it (which has a shorter distance from mount to sensor) would have a couple of advantages (...)

It would be an SL like camera then, with the same issues with M Lenses i want to avoid precisely. 

[pgk]

15 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

That was actually an *incredible* innovation. C/Y never managed to persuade Zeiss to make AF lenses back then so they decided to just DIY it. Oddly it never really took off.
I think there is no room in the M body to go the AX way anyway, it would have to be even thicker than M240 and we all know how that ended.

Indeed, and a genuine AF solution for MF lenses. If adopted as a 'hybrid', coarse MF followed by precise AF, system, it would only need a short amount of physical travel distance. A coarse RF focus could then be accurately adjusted by slight sensor shift for absolute focus. Since we are discussing things on the basis of what might (but almost certainly is not to) be😀.

[pegelli]

37 minutes ago, lct said:

It would be an SL like camera then, with the same issues with M Lenses i want to avoid precisely. 

It would still have the M-body shape, and what "issues" do you have with using M-lenses on an SL camera?

[MRJohn]

17 hours ago, Kwesi said:

...but stick a flash in front of the camera?

Well, I wrote: compromise. - The RF window needs to be covered with something (ideally useful and not ugly) or else they need to make a new top-plate which I suspect is costly to develop. It would be "revolutionary" to have a built-in LED flash in an M (like the one in your smartphone if you have one). Of course one does not have to use it. I suspect these things are very cheap, they don't replace a true flash but might provide opportunities every now and then for some fun close-up flash portraits etc. These small LEDs allow for many design options (that is why car makers love them) and maybe they could come up with a very inconspicuous solution.

An M-EVF with or without flash will never appeal to a RF purist. Nobody who proposes an M-EVF suggests they should stop developing traditional RF models (film or digital), at least I did not read that. Leica will not go bankrupt if they try an M-EVF in the market in a small run and it fails. But maybe it creates some significant business for them as a surprise. It might be even cheaper to manufacture compared to the mechanical RF if they do it at scale.

 

[pegelli]

58 minutes ago, pgk said:

Of course Leica could adoprt the Contax AX approach - autofocus within the camera body - tricky but by no means impossible  if they were to utilise a hybrid coarse manual focus and subsequent precise autofocus. Just sayin'😉.

That's a similar idea as the "moving mount" that I and "adapter approach" that @lct suggested in earlier posts in this thread. My feeling is that the EVF approach will have the most benefit with the longer M-lenses (75/90/135 mm) so either the mount needs to be able to move a lot or you need to prefocus somewhere in the range and then it becomes a MF/AF hybrid which is doable but slightly clunky.

Edited December 10, 2022 by pegelli

[pgk]

54 minutes ago, pegelli said:

That's a similar idea as the "moving mount" that I and "adapter approach" that @lct suggested in earlier posts in this thread. My feeling is that the EVF approach will have the most benefit with the longer M-lenses (75/90/135 mm) so either the mount needs to be able to move a lot or you need to prefocus somewhere in the range and then it becomes a MF/AF hybrid which is doable but slightly clunky.

IF an AF M camera the same size as a film M was developed from the ground up it would still be a compromise because the lenses would need to be as small as the MF versions we currently utilise.  So ANY M system using MF lenses will be more of a compromise and hence clunky. I use Sony A7 series cameras as well as M and the body is not too different to the M isn absolute size. The lenses though are massive, if lightweight. The base problem with the M is its MF lenses but this is why many buy into it. Thrying to deal with the physics of legacy systems is rarely going to produce something which is not compromised in some way or other.

FWIW I cannot see Leica wanting to promote a compromise as it flies in the face of their quality philosophy. Which is why discussions such as these, whilst no doubt heeded by Leica, never seem to provide what people want - an AF, EVF/RF camera the size of an M with an M mount. I personaaly doubt that this is a possibility, especially if it actually needs to make a profit.

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[jaapv]

2 hours ago, lct said:

One cannot do auto image magnification with M lenses on a Sony. Strange that it is so difficult to understand. The EVF-M would simply have an M body with an EVF in lieu of the RF. With IBIS too but the M12 will have it too hopefully.

What is difficult is to understand how Sony would be able to have it... An EVF M mount camera would not have it either.  But then, you are no techie