Lag test - M11 in rangefinder vs liveview mode

[Ba Erv]

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1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

F42, R46.4

Nailed it…I always assumed there was a Dipshitterie modifier included 😁 

[orcinus]

8 hours ago, Daedalus2000 said:

But, my own crude calculations show that having live view on can be an extra 100ms or even more, depending if you use the EVF/LCD or not.

 

 

 

 

100ms is pretty huge, aye.

I’m beginning to wonder if other weird lags (like the occasionally long startup/wakeup times) are somehow related too.

Edited January 27, 2022 by orcinus

[tom0511]

Am 26.1.2022 um 15:58 schrieb orcinus:

Scenario 1: OVF

t=0ms - Event you are photographing occurs. Your eyes see it.

t=150ms - Your brain has received the input from the eyes, and made a decision.

t=200ms - Your finger finally moves and presses the shutter release.

t=264ms - Shutter is activated. Event has been captured with a 264ms delay.

 

Scenario 2: EVF

t=0ms - Event you are photographing occurs. Sensor sees it.

t=50ms - Image of the event shows up in the electronic viewfinder screen.

t=200ms - Your brain has received the input from the eyes, and made a decision.

t=250ms - Your finger finally moves and presses the shutter release.

t=314ms - Shutter is activated. Event has been captured with a 314ms delay.

Could somebody please explain to me how is this extra EVF delay significant compared to the bulk of total reaction time of the system (camera+operator), because i’m obviously still missing something?

watch Olympia winter games and you can see what a difference of 1/100 Sec. means. But seriously, I don't find a real difference between M10r and M11 in this regard. However I believe shutter delay is very well recognized by photographer, and the faster the better.

 

[SrMi]

David Farkas and Josh Lehrer compared shutter lag of M11 and M10-R:

 

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[orcinus]

3 hours ago, tom0511 said:

watch Olympia winter games and you can see what a difference of 1/100 Sec. means. But seriously, I don't find a real difference between M10r and M11 in this regard. However I believe shutter delay is very well recognized by photographer, and the faster the better.

 

Listen to a 100Hz tone to see what a difference of 1/100 sec means

Apples and oranges.

Unless someone provides solid proof they’re suddenly missing a significant number of shots more than with M8/9/10, for a significant N (say N=100), all of this talk of 10ms making an impact is pure fantasy, with 0 grounds in reality (biology).

It’s just placebo caused by a different sounding shutter.

Edited February 11, 2022 by orcinus

[shirubadanieru]

also, M9 has more lag..lol 

And yes, in real world usage the impact is zero. People make a fuzz over nothing.

[tom0511]

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vor 8 Stunden schrieb orcinus:

Listen to a 100Hz tone to see what a difference of 1/100 sec means

Apples and oranges.

Unless someone provides solid proof they’re suddenly missing a significant number of shots more than with M8/9/10, for a significant N (say N=100), all of this talk of 10ms making an impact is pure fantasy, with 0 grounds in reality (biology).

It’s just placebo caused by a different sounding shutter.

As I said, I dont believe that the difference M10r - M11 is a real world issue. However - dont underestimate subjective factors. For example I personally do feel that there is a significant difference between using m10r in live view vs in classic mode. Also dont forget that our brain can somewhat compensate for our human lag. (if not we could never catch a ball).

There is not need for a proof, if people feel that way or believe that way, than it might be a deciding factor for them. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by tom0511

[tom0511]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb shirubadanieru:

also, M9 has more lag..lol 

And yes, in real world usage the impact is zero. People make a fuzz over nothing.

lets face it, 90% of the discussions here are fuzz about theoretical things  but its fun

[rtakeoka]

Shutter curtain speed of M11 is 1/180 so at least 1/180 is added to the shutter lag when closing the shutter before exposure, is this right?  1/100 which Leica says is reasonable considering stop and re-open operation.

If only M11 had shutter-closed mode like Hasselblad X1D's MQ mode.  I think less shutter lag is more important than auto exposure.

By the way, M10 accepts 1/250 for some flash.  M11 does the same? 

[Photoworks]

14 minutes ago, rtakeoka said:

M10 accepts 1/250 for some flash.  M11 does the same? 

Yes in HSS 

[rtakeoka]

5 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Yes in HSS 

Not in HSS but normal sync, I can use 1/250 on my M10-P and M10 Monochrome with Fujifilm EF-X20.

[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, rtakeoka said:

Not in HSS but normal sync, I can use 1/250 on my M10-P and M10 Monochrome with Fujifilm EF-X20.

It is not TTL. it is like any other flash non from Leica. That is usually depending on flash power output .

[archive_all]

On 2/10/2022 at 9:26 PM, shirubadanieru said:

"And yes, in real world usage the impact is zero"

That's not actually true and it depends on use, I think that should be stated for folks interested in this thread. I find the M10 series in LV mode to be not at all acceptable for a lot of street photography situations, a lot. It's a massive drawback actually and I'd love to be able to use LV for more low angle shots. So the M11 would only be acceptable for me possibly in mechanical shutter/RF mode, much like the M10 series. Would it sway me from purchasing one? I'd have to test it more first to be sure the slight increase in lag doesn't mess up a scene or composition but it still has at least the same limitations, maybe more  in those situations as the M10 series so it's not a positive or negative. However, I'd personally like to see an electronic shutter in an M series that's has even less lag than both the M10 and M11 in mechanical shutter mode.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

20 minutes ago, archive_all said:

That's not actually true and it depends on use, I think that should be stated for folks interested in this thread. I find the M10 series in LV mode to be not at all acceptable for a lot of street photography situations, a lot. It's a massive drawback actually and I'd love to be able to use LV for more low angle shots. So the M11 would only be acceptable for me possibly in mechanical shutter/RF mode, much like the M10 series. Would it sway me from purchasing one? I'd have to test it more first to be sure the slight increase in lag doesn't mess up a scene or composition but it still has at least the same limitations, maybe more  in those situations as the M10 series so it's not a positive or negative. However, I'd personally like to see an electronic shutter in an M series that's has even less lag than both the M10 and M11 in mechanical shutter mode.

I don't know how they did their testing (too long. too boring) but my M11 in LV is almost indistinguishable from RF shooting and MUCH quicker then the M10R in LV mode. There will be a small difference between LV and RF modes on the M11 but without actually trying to measure it I couldn't feel that it's any different to the RF mode.

Also these figures seem shorter than some pro DSLR's. I saw it reported (I have not tested this) that the D5 has a lag of 40ms, as does the M10. The M11 is supposed to be 10ms slower in RF mode (so 50ms) and faster in LV.

Gordon

 

[shirubadanieru]

43 minutes ago, archive_all said:

That's not actually true and it depends on use, I think that should be stated for folks interested in this thread. I find the M10 series in LV mode to be not at all acceptable for a lot of street photography situations, a lot. It's a massive drawback actually and I'd love to be able to use LV for more low angle shots. So the M11 would only be acceptable for me possibly in mechanical shutter/RF mode, much like the M10 series. Would it sway me from purchasing one? I'd have to test it more first to be sure the slight increase in lag doesn't mess up a scene or composition but it still has at least the same limitations, maybe more  in those situations as the M10 series so it's not a positive or negative. However, I'd personally like to see an electronic shutter in an M series that's has even less lag than both the M10 and M11 in mechanical shutter mode.

I was referring to rangefinder mode, as I never use LV or EVF on an M. I buy an M for the mechanical feel and OVF, not to use it like an SL, especially for street photography nothing beats a rangefinder with zone focusing, so I don’t see why one would purposely buy an M to go and shoot street photography with LV or EVF. But that’s just me, each to their own  

I have no idea about the lag on LV or its impact, as I have turned LV off since day one and never touched it since then. But on rangefinder mode I can say without a doubt, that there is zero impact. I come from the M9, which even had more lag, and even the M9 I never had any issues. I shoot film alongside the M11, and I feel no difference at all in my ability to capture what I want to capture. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by shirubadanieru

[archive_all]

2 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

I was referring to rangefinder mode, as I never use LV or EVF on an M. I buy an M for the mechanical feel and OVF, not to use it like an SL, especially for street photography nothing beats a rangefinder with zone focusing, so I don’t see why one would purposely buy an M to go and shoot street photography with LV or EVF. But that’s just me, each to their own  

I have no idea about the lag on LV or its impact, as I have turned LV off since day one and never touched it since then. But on rangefinder mode I can say without a doubt, that there is zero impact. I come from the M9, which even had more lag, and even the M9 I never had any issues. I shoot film alongside the M11, and I feel no difference at all in my ability to capture what I want to capture. 

I agree with that. I also use the rangefinder 90% of the time which is what the system is about for me. However, I do like to use LV for some low angle shots, never an evf though. Anyway, I was looking at the entire graph but from the testing I did, I didn't immediately notice a delay in RF mode compared to the M10. I'd have to test it more but I don't yet own an M11 so rely on what I'm reading here.

I to shoot film M's and find they may be a touch faster actually. I could be wrong but my sense and images seem to be more spot on with what I remember capturing. 

[scott kirkpatrick]

On 2/10/2022 at 5:01 PM, SrMi said:

David Farkas and Josh Lehrer compared shutter lag of M11 and M10-R:

 

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Where did that plot appear?  Did they create a piece of lab equipment that would press the shutter and start the clock at the same time?  Or describe their measurement process?

Found it, at 1:14 in the second red dot forum video discussion:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJZL2m95h9U  .  Josh says he has a stopwatch which starts as the shutter is pressed.  The most interesting result is the comparison of the M10 and M11, where the difference is only 2 msec.  I would wonder how much the shutter release depth differs between the two cameras?  Is that unknown also several msec?  Anyway, the difference is small.

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by scott kirkpatrick