meaningful and meaningless M upgrades

[FrozenInTime]

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For professional use, a pair of SL2-Ss at half the cost and modern functionality seems more appealing ; as an amateur, the prospect of carrying a pair of SL2-Ss is unpleasant; a 24 Mpixel M11-S at M10 prices would be my preferred next step.

 

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[setuporg]

53 minutes ago, analog-digital said:

Not quite true. With each upgrade, the photos get a lot better.

Not with the M9-P or M10-P.  Boy am I glad I was not there to puzzle about the M9-P upgrade.  I enjoy my M9-P now but I’d hate to be pressured to upgrade an M9 to it.

[SrMi]

40 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

My black paint MP 0.72 was flawless

My M4-P was flawless

My M240 was flawless

My M-P 240 Safari set was flawless

My Q2 was flawless

My M10 Mono was flawless

Every new Leica M lens I have ever purchased has been flawless - why should an M11 be any different?

My $9000 USD payment will be flawless so my M11 will need to be flawless or I will return it.

We're not talking about a $200 push mower here. 

As for functioning correctly and as advertised, it's not unreasonable to expect your M11 to do so.  That's why Leica cameras and lenses come with a three year warranty.

My Q2M, and everyone else's Q2M, was initially not flawless. I could not use it for higher ISOs until a new firmware appeared. I can continue using my M11, even with all the issues.
It should not happen, but it happens.

P.S.: I get the impression that non-owners are more upset about M11 issues than owners. Am I wrong?

[M9reno]

3 hours ago, setuporg said:

BTW there's never been an M10-RP!:)

Erm… wouldn’t that be the M10R-BP ?! 🤣

[setuporg]

2 minutes ago, M9reno said:

Erm… wouldn’t that be the M10R-BP ?! 🤣

Thank goodness not an M10-RPG!

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

...I think that once Leica goes over 10k for an m body, that will price out a lot of people like me.  Psychologically, there is no difference to me going from $7995 to $8995.  I can even tolerate toing to $9995.  At $10,005, Leica will lose me, at least at my current financial situation (the lotto gods have yet to bless me)...

$10,000 USD will be an awfully big bullet to bite - as is $9000 USD.

I have a theory:  A price of $10k for the (probably) M13 will reveal the Leica connoisseurs who are truly committed, as well as M image makers who use their M kit to make money - as the $14,295 USD 75mm Noctilux 1.25 does.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[250swb]

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3 hours ago, setuporg said:

 

Given the half-bakedness of M11, the M11-P must address all of the complaints and be not a cosmetic, but a real upgrade.

Leica know what their next two or more 'upgrades' will be long before the release of the M11. But it isn't much different with any camera manufacturer, in their design departments the new camera being reviewed by ecstatic influencers is already the old camera, and by a long way. We have a particular breed of Leica influencers who claim stating the facts should be enough for people to make a choice, but they get their influence at the behest of Leica, anybody who states simple logic  and says 'you know what is around the corner so wait' is going to be off the payroll.

Edited January 23, 2022 by 250swb

[M9reno]

2 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

$10,000 USD will be an awfully big bullet to bite - as is $9000 USD.

I have a theory:  A price of $10k for the (probably) M13 will reveal the Leica connoisseurs who are truly committed, as well as M image makers who use their M kit to make money, just the same as the $14,295 USD 75mm Noctilux 1.25 does.

Leica came up with an answer to this problem rather recently, probably not by coincidence.

https://store.leica-camera.com/uk/en/shipping-and-payment-terms

• Payment by financing

We are pleased to introduce 0% APR and 9.9% APR financing on a large selection of items. This programme guarantees peace of mind when purchasing your favourite Leica gear. Pay monthly and at ease by choosing the right financing plan for you. 

- 0% APR financing is now available on the Leica M10-R, Q2 Monochrom and Noctivid for up to 24 months. It is a one-off process, simple and fast with no waiting required. T&Cs Apply*.
- 0% APR financing is also available on any purchase or order above £5,000 for up to 12 months. T&Cs Apply*.
- 9.9% APR financing is available on all Leica products for up to 24 months with a minimum spend of £350 and a minimum deposit of 10% required upfront. Amount based on the final price of the selected item. T&Cs Apply*.

[Herr Barnack]

33 minutes ago, SrMi said:

My Q2M, and everyone else's Q2M, was initially not flawless. I could not use it for higher ISOs until a new firmware appeared. I can continue using my M11, even with all the issues.
It should not happen, but it happens.

P.S.: I get the impression that non-owners are more upset about M11 issues than owners. Am I wrong?

I completely forgot about the issues with ISO in the Q2M, because I have the Q2 and not the Q2M.  You are right, though. 

I can't answer the P.S. question, other than to say that what I am weary of is the lambasting of Leica in general and the M11 in particular.  The relentless negativity gets to be too much even for those of us who are not Leica "moonies."

My plan is to wait it out till the first firmware upgrade for the M11 is released to address the bugs/glitches and then plop down my wheel barrow full of cash for my M11.

 

@M9reno  Leica financing had to happen sooner or later.  Maybe other Leica stores will follow Leica Store UK's lead.   It would make Leica ownership possible for those who want to get started in the M (or Q or maybe even S) system(s) but don't have a huge chunk of ready cash to part with.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[FlashGordonPhotography]

M = Red dot.

M-P = No red dot.

Hardly the point though. Most, but not all, people who can afford an M, new. do so with discretionary funds. And if they can afford it and they like shiny new things, they buy it. So what? It's their money and they're not hurting any one else. They're not being duped. They know it's not *necessary*. Any M isn't neessary.

That puts lightly used M's on the market for those that are happy with the last generation. 

Leica is a business. It's therir job to tempt you to the next shiny thing. It's up to you to decide or not. Leica don't generally sell features. They sell an experience. Some people buy for the dot. The rest are ninjas. Some ninjas use tape.

M10R - Live view off camera.

M11 - Live view on camera.

It's a fundemental difference. One isn't better but they are different. Ibought an M11 and I'm keeping my M10R. I usually have two colour M's. So I buy each release. One M and then an M-P. I did skip the M10P (just bought 2 x M10's). I'll buy and M11-P and stop using the M10R. Though I might wait for the black paint version this time. I adore the BP cameras.

The M11 has some software issues. Currently nothing affecting the way I shoot but they're there. Pretty common for Leica.

Gordon

[Photoworks]

11 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

M = Red dot.

M-P = No red dot.

Hardly the point though. Most, but not all, people who can afford an M, new. do so with discretionary funds. And if they can afford it and they like shiny new things, they buy it. So what? It's their money and they're not hurting any one else. They're not being duped. They know it's not *necessary*. Any M isn't neessary.

That puts lightly used M's on the market for those that are happy with the last generation. 

Leica is a business. It's therir job to tempt you to the next shiny thing. It's up to you to decide or not. Leica don't generally sell features. They sell an experience. Some people buy for the dot. The rest are ninjas. Some ninjas use tape.

M10R - Live view off camera.

M11 - Live view on camera.

It's a fundemental difference. One isn't better but they are different. Ibought an M11 and I'm keeping my M10R. I usually have two colour M's. So I buy each release. One M and then an M-P. I did skip the M10P (just bought 2 x M10's). I'll buy and M11-P and stop using the M10R. Though I might wait for the black paint version this time. I adore the BP cameras.

The M11 has some software issues. Currently nothing affecting the way I shoot but they're there. Pretty common for Leica.

Gordon

good to the point..

[cldp]

I was one of the extremely disappointed users when the M10 arrived without a Level Gauge installed. I shoot a lot of landscapes where that function is very useful. There were rumors that a firmware update would fix it, after all, the images showed up right-side-up in Bridge and Lightroom. Evidently, what allowed for that wasn't fine tuned enough, so it took a hardware update. Getting a quieter shutter and an improved viewfinder was a bonus but I might have upgraded just for the Level, it's a well used aid in my workflow. Happily (for me and some others) it returned in the M10-P and has been in all the models since including the M10 Monochrom. I thank Leica for listening to minority members of their clientele and their willingness to adjust to those needs. I neither buy every model or keep every one I buy. They are all sold or traded in on the next desired upgrade. I have told many potential Leica buyers that the problem is beginning with the Leica the system. Once you own one, the Leicas retain so much more of their resale value that I've rarely felt burdened to move up to one that had features I could use. Plus all my lenses stay much longer and the lenses are the most important part of the equation. 

So, we all use our cameras differently and we don't have to buy the models that don't add value to our workflow.

[IkarusJohn]

Each iteration of the M has been significantly different - M8 (digital APS-H); M9 (digital full frame); M240 (CMOS with video); M10 (return to thin M simplicity); M11 (a move away from simplicity).  The “P”, “D” and Monochrom cameras were simply variants of the original.  Some changes were cosmetic, but they also corrected issues with the base model - increased buffer size (M240), tougher LCD glass (M9), better shutter (M10), and so the list goes on.  In a couple of cases, the M-E and M262, the variants were simpler, more stripped down.  In almost every case, Leica addressed things which came up after the initial release.  All the cameras were good - some just suited some photographers more than others.

No, no one was pressured or forced into P upgrades.  I’m sure we will see an M11-M, probably an M11-P, and probably not an M11-D.  Heaven help us all if Leica releases a 100MP M11-R!

What’s interesting is how the base has shifted from each model - CCD -> CMOS (complexity) -> CMOS (refinement) -> MPx -> more MPx (no shutter metering).  Much as many here might prefer it, I doubt Leica will release a simplified M11 without live view.  It seems that ship has sailed.  Similarly, I don’t see a simplified M11 without the 60MP sensor, more’s the pity in both cases.  For me, the M has moved on to something I’m not sure about.

So, what will the M11-P offer, apart from the traditional script and a black paint option?  I’m sure Leica is working on that right now, including resolving any problems that might have become apparent.  A non-live view model would be attractive (if a “crap” idea for some, @FlashGordonPhotography).

[SrMi]

14 minutes ago, Artin said:

That would probably be 15,000 dollars and then they will release the M12 for 15,500 and bam another round 

At least there was no price increase from M10-R to M11. However, we may expect the price of M11 to increase as time goes on.

[shirubadanieru]

This mirrorless type of metering is really unnecessary....imagine the M11 without this metering system, and you have a perfect camera update for me right there. On the field I see no difference in actual output between using this metering and the old style one...and when I think of the merits and demerits of this change, I think the demerits far outweighs the merits (sensor is always open/naked - mine already has a huge dust particle that I can't remove with the blower so will have to go to Leica to get it cleaned up...and this was WITHOUT changing any lens on the field...no idea how it got there; battery drain, slower shutter, annoying startup noise (it's like turning on LV every time you turn on the camera))

[Photoworks]

5 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

On the field I see no difference in actual output between using this metering and the old style one

on M10 cameras you got different reading when using OVF or EVF 020.

 

[rramesh]

It's all about the "law of diminishing returns".

 

 

[IkarusJohn]

6 minutes ago, Artin said:

Man enough about the metering already... the old metering was awful it never worked properly. The new system is better it does not drain the battery and just remember to shut the damn camera off when you change a lens 

Sorry, can't agree, Arthur.

I use metering off the sensor on my TL2 and my SL, and on my M10-D when using the EVF.  Conversely, I use metering off the shutter with both my Monochrom and M10-D with the OVF.  The latter works perfectly as centre weighted metering - you just need to make sure you know what it's measuring.  I typically use -2/3 on my cameras to avoid clipping highlights; otherwise digital is sufficiently flexible to deal with minor exposure issues.  

The only time I have a metering problem is using my M-A ... 🙄

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[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Sorry, can't agree, Arthur.

I use metering off the sensor on my TL2 and my SL, and on my M10-D when using the EVF.  Conversely, I use metering off the shutter with both my Monochrom and M10-D with the OVF.  The latter works perfectly as centre weighted metering - you just need to make sure you know what it's measuring.  I typically use -2/3 on my cameras to avoid clipping highlights; otherwise digital is sufficiently flexible to deal with minor exposure issues.  

The only time I have a metering problem is using my M-A ... 🙄

I think that multi field metering is easier, but, in experienced hands, center weighted or spot metering can produce excellent results.

[setuporg]

55 minutes ago, SrMi said:

At least there was no price increase from M10-R to M11. However, we may expect the price of M11 to increase as time goes on.

Do you see any reason to keep both now?