Reid's review on colors of M10R vs. M11

[jakontil]

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On 1/20/2022 at 12:31 AM, setuporg said:

I've renewed my subscription to read the original, and encourage everyone else to do the same.  If you read all the instructions you'd agree this is what Sean asks you to do when signing up.  The review is very detailed and it's not fair to boil it down here, but we can discuss results.  The results are probably that it makes sense to keep the M10-R for me.:)

 

Makes me curious so i subscribed, and gotta agree with you… so no deal on BH + silver so far?

[digitalfx]

On 1/19/2022 at 11:31 AM, setuporg said:

 The results are probably that it makes sense to keep the M10-R for me.:)

 

id wait on the full assessment...thats just part 1 of 6

[hdmesa]

On 1/19/2022 at 1:12 PM, UliWer said:

I think it is quite easy.

if someone goes public he has to accept being talked about. He can demand not to be plagiarized by any means which infringe his own copyright, but he cannot demand that nobody mentions that he published something.

Different people coming to different conclusions about what they read is normal. No author is entitled to control the individual perception of his readers and neither is he entitled to forbid sharing these individual perceptions. 

Sounds like the demand is not to infringe upon copyright, but the request is not to summarize the content elsewhere online. The consequence for many people violating the request could be the author may decide to follow other pursuits.

And I think by "summarize", he doesn't mean a one sentence conclusion as was done in this thread by someone. It think he's more concerned with a detailed summary – but I don't know for sure, you'd have to ask him.

[Huss]

I read it and oh boy am I glad I did not upgrade from my M8.  I need my purple blacks - or as I like to say my blurples - as I make my living shooting eggplants.

[albireo_double]

On 1/19/2022 at 2:53 PM, John Smith said:

The M10R uses the same sensor architecture as the S3. I know Leica said that it fine tuned the red channel for the S3. I don't know if it mentioned also fine tuning the channel for the M10R, but it would make sense that it did. If it makes any difference, Josh Lehrer said the S3 gets Ferrari red right. 

In my experience, the S3 gets the reds and skin tones right or at least very close to the ballpark to make them easy to fine-tune in C1, with the ProStandard profiles. On the other hand, I have struggled beyond desperation with skin tones out of the M10R, especially in backlit situations or where there are more people in the image (when I get skin tones acceptable for one they tend to look bad for the other(s)). Skin tones out of the M10R look too brown or strange orange and desaturated to me and no amount of fiddling in C1 seems to get them pleasing enough. I have no problems with skin tones out of the SL2 which for the past two years has been my "go to" camera for most of my people photography. I am not talking SOOC colours with the AWB setting, but rather my ability to quickly make the colours look like I want them and grade using the C1 custom presets - easy with SL2 and S3 files, struggle with M10R files. 

[Guest]

<rant>

I’m sorry but all this cr@p about the colour differences between M11 and M10(D,P,R whatever) is a bit ott*. Of course there’s a difference, it’s a different sensor.

The M9 was different from the M8, the M was different from the M9 and the M10 different again.

Figure it out in post and move on with your life. If you don’t like it return or sell the camera and buy the one you do like.

in the glory days of film did they say Kodachrome was different from Ektachrome, or Tri-x was different from HP5+? Yes, but they worked with it and used it to the emulsion strengths and weaknesses.

In summary, yes it’s different, get over it and move on!

</rant>
 

*ott Over the top.

Edited September 11, 2022 by OThomas

[DenverSteve]

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On 9/11/2022 at 3:07 AM, OThomas said:

<rant>

I’m sorry but all this cr@p about the colour differences between M11 and M10(D,P,R whatever) is a bit ott*. Of course there’s a difference, it’s a different sensor.

The M9 was different from the M8, the M was different from the M9 and the M10 different again.

Figure it out in post and move on with your life. If you don’t like it return or sell the camera and buy the one you do like.

in the glory days of film did they say Kodachrome was different from Ektachrome, or Tri-x was different from HP5+? Yes, but they worked with it and used it to the emulsion strengths and weaknesses.

In summary, yes it’s different, get over it and move on!

</rant>
 

*ott Over the top.

This nails it. Just like with film - pick up your camera, back away from the computer, take photos, adjust your color, take more photos and when you get your adjustments where you want them - take more photos.  Someone above stated " "but when you spend over $10k on a M camera and lens combination what's another $50 to learn how to better use your new tool." Reading someone's opinion is NOT learning to better use your camera - it's sitting on your tail, looking at the computer instead of reading the owner's manual and picking up the camera.  If you don't know how to take photographs, take a class because pretending that reading someone's pay-for-use website is going to make you a better photographer is folly.

[graphlex]

On 1/19/2022 at 9:14 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

Can anyone who's read War and Peace tell me who dunnit? Or must I buy it to find out?

It’s Nicholas Stavrogin, I’ve heard.

[Casey Jefferson]

Folks in Leica Germany probably sitting in a bar, having beers in hand, sighing about how people back then were happy with the crappy film skin tones where they sent their films to some random crappy film developer in town. OK I'm just exaggerating but still...

I understand digital isn't film, I tried various different systems and bodies, even a couple of different generations of digital M bodies and settled on one and am very happy with that inspired me every time I take it out. I rarely tinker with the colors unless I want to color grade it to look *less* accurate. Life is short, I just use whatever my budget allows and choose one within that I'm happy with. 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Casey Jefferson

[Casey Jefferson]

On 9/11/2022 at 5:07 PM, OThomas said:

<rant>

I’m sorry but all this cr@p about the colour differences between M11 and M10(D,P,R whatever) is a bit ott*. Of course there’s a difference, it’s a different sensor.

The M9 was different from the M8, the M was different from the M9 and the M10 different again.

Figure it out in post and move on with your life. If you don’t like it return or sell the camera and buy the one you do like.

in the glory days of film did they say Kodachrome was different from Ektachrome, or Tri-x was different from HP5+? Yes, but they worked with it and used it to the emulsion strengths and weaknesses.

In summary, yes it’s different, get over it and move on!

</rant>
 

*ott Over the top.

And then when people are finally happy with the skin tones and accuracy, they start to think it's boring and color grade them to give it film or even artistic look. 🙂 

"Accuracy" isn't how most our brains works, we fantasize things before they happen and romanticize when it became memories.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Casey Jefferson

[THEME]

A good photograph doesn't care about such ad nauseam pixel-peeping. 

Some of the best photographs in time aren't even properly focused.

Yet alone... ultimate color accuracy?!

Get over it, there is no ultimate "color accuracy," there only are personal perceptions, preferences and, yes, abilities. The "color" standards as in high-gloss magazines and so forth? Always post-processed.

Yet what is a given: the extraordinary capabilities of this latest M11 sensor and tech, and of course its predecessors, and so forth. Rightly tuned and in the right hands, any of those cameras is able to create masterpieces. And any of these cameras is perfectly capable of producing the most boring and unneeded photos with off-colors.

Am glad Reid subscribers enjoy their subscription, but if you protect it so zealously why even share any non-information here? Am sure any Reid subscribers are fully aware of updated reviews.

[lct]

Yes but don't forget jpeg users. They want to know how their camera behaves on OOC pictures, if they have a yellowish or blueish tint, more or less saturation, etc. As for raw users pretending there is no color accuracy, try to do side by side comparisons between cameras of the same brand, let alone of different brands, it is a boring exercice but you will be surprised how different color renditions can be. No rant whatsoever .

[Guest]

19 hours ago, graphlex said:

It’s Nicholas Stavrogin, I’ve heard.

I thought it was the butler with the lead pipe in the library 🤔

[Adam Bonn]

4 hours ago, lct said:

Yes but don't forget jpeg users. They want to know how their camera behaves on OOC pictures, if they have a yellowish or blueish tint, more or less saturation, etc. As for raw users pretending there is no color accuracy, try to do side by side comparisons between cameras of the same brand, let alone of different brands, it is a boring exercice but you will be surprised how different color renditions can be. No rant whatsoever .

Very true, and RAW shooters will get different results depending on which app they use to edit files, or even which ‘look’ or base setting is chosen as the starting point.

Another IMO huge (but I think seldom mentioned) difference between different cameras is the native tonality of the files, this gives a certain look to the files.

But it is what it is. In my view new cameras bring updated features and more measurable performance (ISO, DR etc), but that doesn’t necessarily mean everyone will like the pictures more than their old camera

[jakontil]

im partly colour blind and since the day i started shooting, the least concern thing for me is colour or colour science or whatever we call it.. that’s why i shoot films for my pleasure, coz i did almost nothing other than converting it from negative regarding to the outputs, sometimes i get colour cast or colour not intended due to my developing inconsistency 

and i have stated this over and over… the only thing makes me get the M11 was its new and improved battery, together with usb c port for convenience.. other than that, hands down my black paint M10-r, yeah it’s black i could see it black 😀

[tom0511]

I dont need absolute color accurancy.

But I like, if the output of a camera / sensor with the software I use comes out to my taste. If possible without too much post processing. Why not discuss this in a forum and share experiences?

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

Why not discuss this in a forum and share experiences?

Start a thread and see what happens 

[tom0511]

If you start a thread about not caring about color differences…

[Jeff S]

On 10/14/2022 at 12:18 PM, Adam Bonn said:

Another IMO huge (but I think seldom mentioned) difference between different cameras is the native tonality of the files, this gives a certain look to the files.

 

Much of that “native” tonality is related to the default settings that the camera company and the software vendors choose to incorporate.  Folks here complained initially about ‘flat’ files from the M10 Monochrom (common with high DR sensors), and soon after a new, more S-shaped, tone curve was introduced as the LR import default. Many here then just thought the M10 M had an inherently high “native” contrast. 
 

Jeff

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[Guest]

28 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

If you start a thread about not caring about color differences…

I really don’t care about the difference and I won’t be doing that.