Function buttons not working correctly on New M11

[Camaro5]

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I am really surprised so many of you are having issues right out of the gate.  If I had just spend $9K on a camera and it didn't work right I would be furious.  

[Stevejack]

2 minutes ago, Camaro5 said:

I am really surprised so many of you are having issues right out of the gate.  If I had just spend $9K on a camera and it didn't work right I would be furious.  

There's nothing to be furious about just yet, Leica is replacing any that are faulty.

If this ends up being a bigger problem (a hardware fault present in all M11 cameras for example) then yeah there will be some furious people I'm sure. I don't think we're there yet though, but we'll see what happens over the next few months.

[opera207]

9 hours ago, Stevejack said:

There's nothing to be furious about just yet, Leica is replacing any that are faulty.

If this ends up being a bigger problem (a hardware fault present in all M11 cameras for example) then yeah there will be some furious people I'm sure. I don't think we're there yet though, but we'll see what happens over the next few months.

What if, the first batch of m11 all have the same hardware problem, only if some of them haven't show yet. Then the waiting,  the replacement, are meaningless.

Edited January 18, 2022 by opera207

[SrMi]

One indication that software may fix it is that the long press (changing assigned functions) seems to work even if the short press (activate function) is flaky. Have others with issues observed the same behavior?

[mon10a]

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

One indication that software may fix it is that the long press (changing assigned functions) seems to work even if the short press (activate function) is flaky. Have others with issues observed the same behavior?

Yes, long press always works for me. Interestingly, in the last day or two the top function button on my M11 has improved and seems to always work on first press, while the button under the wheel often takes several presses to activate.

The improvement in the consistency of the top function button reminds me of the complaints that the M10R shutter did not always fire when the shutter release was pressed. I also had this problem, but it resolved itself within a couple of weeks (don’t know how other M10R owners with this problem fared).

edit: grammar

Edited January 21, 2022 by mon10a

[Photoworks]

2 minutes ago, mon10a said:

Yes, long press always works for me. Interestingly, in the last day or two the top function button on my M11 has improved and seems to always work on first press, while the button under the wheel often takes several presses to activate.

The improvement in the consistency of the top function button reminds me of the complaints that the M10R shutter did not always fire when the shutter release was pressed. I also had this problem, but it resolved itself within a couple of weeks (don’t know how other M10R owners with this problem faired).

I hope they can improve the firmware...  I am having the shutter problem sometime on M11, when I take a few photos rapidly it does not always take the 2nd photo. It shows me the green eye above the shutter speed in EVF and then it does not take the image..

my M10R has not this issue..

[paulsydaus]

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Obviously anyone experiencing these issues should demand a replacement.

Hopefully this issue will fixable in firmware.  The parameters by which the software looks at the signal from the buttons might need to be adjusted. Similar issues plagued Xbox Elite controllers when they were first released.

But it sucks that simple stuff like this isn't ironed out in development.  It also doesn't make sense why Leica would regress in these areas when the M10 had perfectly capable and reliable buttons already...

Leica policy should be to replace these cameras so they can get the faulty bodies back and study them to determine root cause.  It will be cheaper for Leica in the long run even if they have to resale the bodies at lower margins.  But like I said I suspect the issue is software related, and that the parameters for what constitutes a button press will need to be adjusted in firmware.

I am an electrical engineer BTW.

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by paulsydaus

[onasj]

I really think it must be a logic board defect.  That’s the only explanation that seems to fit all the data.  Hopefully Leica and replace the defective copies ASAP.

[paulsydaus]

4 hours ago, onasj said:

I really think it must be a logic board defect.  That’s the only explanation that seems to fit all the data.  Hopefully Leica and replace the defective copies ASAP.

I doubt that.  It’s most likely to be mechanical tolerance issue with the buttons themselves, or a firmware/software parameterization issue with monitoring of the button inputs.

Only Leica will be able to know for sure once they receive affected copies.  And the chance of them telling us is zero.  So at the end of the day if anyone receives a $9k camera or any product for that matter that is not functioning correctly they should demand a replacement or refund as required by law in most countries.  Simple as that!

[mikek61]

10 hours ago, paulsydaus said:

Obviously anyone experiencing these issues should demand a replacement.

Hopefully this issue will fixable in firmware.  The parameters by which the software looks at the signal from the buttons might need to be adjusted. Similar issues plagued Xbox Elite controllers when they were first released.

But it sucks that simple stuff like this isn't ironed out in development.  It also doesn't make sense why Leica would regress in these areas when the M10 had perfectly capable and reliable buttons already...

Leica policy should be to replace these cameras so they can get the faulty bodies back and study them to determine root cause.  It will be cheaper for Leica in the long run even if they have to resale the bodies at lower margins.  But like I said I suspect the issue is software related, and that the parameters for what constitutes a button press will need to be adjusted in firmware.

I am an electrical engineer BTW.

 

If it is a firmware issue, I don't think Leica would be taking the bodies back as rapidly as they are.  They would ask customers to wait for the firmware fix.  I think there is a bad batch of hardware.  What actual component is bad is anybody's guess.  At this point it still feels like there are more good copies out there than bad.  So I'm guessing there will be a range of serial numbers effected and Leica will be replacing or repairing the defects.  

[paulsydaus]

12 minutes ago, mikek61 said:

If it is a firmware issue, I don't think Leica would be taking the bodies back as rapidly as they are.  They would ask customers to wait for the firmware fix.  I think there is a bad batch of hardware.  What actual component is bad is anybody's guess.  At this point it still feels like there are more good copies out there than bad.  So I'm guessing there will be a range of serial numbers effected and Leica will be replacing or repairing the defects.  

Wow do I need to write an essay?  Leica likely don’t know what the issue is yet.  We are a week into a launch of a new camera.  Are you insane?  They probably haven’t even had time to receive bad bodies back yet, let alone analyze them.  They have every obligation to replace the cameras.  That means nothing.  I love how everyone is an expert on everything.  I am merely giving my qualified opinion as like an electrical engineer with significant experience.  But I guess the internet is smarter than me!  Logic boards are very unlikely to be the issue.  The issue is most likely within the buttons themselves or software.  It will take time for Leica to figure out what is going on.  At least a couple of months.  You expect them to have issued a firmware update already?  What is your experience in complex manufacturing and software development?

Edited January 23, 2022 by paulsydaus

[Tailwagger]

6 minutes ago, paulsydaus said:

The issue is most likely within the buttons themselves or software.

If it was with the buttons themselves, it seems unlikely to me that the long presses would work. As I mentioned a while back, from the start this has felt like software issue. Given the buttons are dual use, short press vs. hold, the most obvious answer is that when the button is pressed before they can act they set up a timer to check how long the button is held. It wouldn't surprise me if it was something along the lines of the timer setup getting delayed due to some higher priority operation intervening and they miss the level change when the button is released. The timer later expires, they check the button, the state was already released and so they do nothing.

[paulsydaus]

6 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

If it was with the buttons themselves, it seems unlikely to me that the long presses would work. As I mentioned a while back, from the start this has felt like software issue. Given the buttons are dual use, short press vs. hold, the most obvious answer is that when the button is pressed before they can act they set up a timer to check how long the button is held. It wouldn't surprise me if it was something along the lines of the timer setup getting delayed due to some higher priority operation intervening and they miss the level change when the button is released. The timer later expires, they check the button, the state was already released and so they do nothing.

 

7 hours ago, paulsydaus said:

Wow do I need to write an essay?  Leica likely don’t know what the issue is yet.  We are a week into a launch of a new camera.  Are you insane?  They probably haven’t even had time to receive bad bodies back yet, let alone analyze them.  They have every obligation to replace the cameras.  That means nothing.  I love how everyone is an expert on everything.  I am merely giving my qualified opinion as like an electrical engineer with significant experience.  But I guess the internet is smarter than me!  Logic boards are very unlikely to be the issue.  The issue is most likely within the buttons themselves or software.  It will take time for Leica to figure out what is going on.  At least a couple of months.  You expect them to have issued a firmware update already?  What is your experience in complex manufacturing and software development?

Sorry about the tone in my post here.  Think I woke up on the wrong side of the bed.  Apologies to mikek61.

Edited January 23, 2022 by paulsydaus

[AlanJW]

Just to record here that my M11 (black) exhibits the same button press issues for assigned functions.  And the same no issue for long press.  Several friends with M11s (including chrome) report exactly the same.

I am no engineer but logic tells me that if the long press works, it is a software issue relating to the timing of the short presses.  I hope that is not just wishful thinking.

[digitalfx]

14 hours ago, mikek61 said:

If it is a firmware issue, I don't think Leica would be taking the bodies back as rapidly as they are.  They would ask customers to wait for the firmware fix.  I think there is a bad batch of hardware.  What actual component is bad is anybody's guess.  At this point it still feels like there are more good copies out there than bad.  So I'm guessing there will be a range of serial numbers effected and Leica will be replacing or repairing the defects.  

Since the sum total of your knowledge of others experiences is based on internet posts, id suggest you not jump to conclusions yet. Leica isnt taking cameras back, the local dealers are accommodating customer requests...its what they do. And frankly of the thousands of cameras already sold, do you really know how many were actually exchanged? Not to mention it takes time for the dealers to communicate with Leica headquarters on returns, Leica to investigate and then report back to dealers on how they should respond to customers...this simply cant happen inside a week and the product launch was one week ago.

Im in the camp of firmware...I have too experienced an occasional non responsive button push, but thought it was either me or I was in the wrong mode. I believe its just a delay caused by a bug in the fw that could be easily fixed. If it was hardware issue, the buttons wouldn't work for all functions. So far it hasn't stopped me from shooting or even slowed me down much, so I will wait to see if new FW fixes it rather than going to the dealer for an exchange. 

 

[mikek61]

18 hours ago, paulsydaus said:

Wow do I need to write an essay?  Leica likely don’t know what the issue is yet.  We are a week into a launch of a new camera.  Are you insane?  They probably haven’t even had time to receive bad bodies back yet, let alone analyze them.  They have every obligation to replace the cameras.  That means nothing.  I love how everyone is an expert on everything.  I am merely giving my qualified opinion as like an electrical engineer with significant experience.  But I guess the internet is smarter than me!  Logic boards are very unlikely to be the issue.  The issue is most likely within the buttons themselves or software.  It will take time for Leica to figure out what is going on.  At least a couple of months.  You expect them to have issued a firmware update already?  What is your experience in complex manufacturing and software development?

No, I'm not frickin insane.  I have over 30 years of operations, mfg and supplychain experience in high tech.   So I know how this process works. I know how defects are analyzed in the QA process.  Leica would have the ability to analyze the defects without getting any of the bodies back.   You are the one that thinks you know it all.  The only thing you are qualified in at the moment is being arrogant and condescending.   Companies do not just take back hardware if there is the possibility of a remote solution.   That would be fiscally irresponsible.  As an electrical engineer, you should know that.   Leica not only took back defective bodies from customers, they also recalled some bodies from the stores,  I know this for a fact.   That action indicates a hardware issue.  What I don't know is what percentage of bodies shipped are effected.  As I said, it seems like there are more good bodies than bad out there.  Which also leads me to a hardware issue.   Even if the bugs only show up under certain conditions, Firmware issues tend to be present in all bodies.   Enough said, I'm done.     

Edited January 23, 2022 by mikek61
removed offensive sentence

[mikek61]

11 hours ago, paulsydaus said:

 

Sorry about the tone in my post here.  Think I woke up on the wrong side of the bed.  Apologies to mikek61.

Thank you.  Accepted. I deleted my sentence telling you to shove it.   LOL.   I do have over 30 years in electromechanical development, design, mfg and supplychain.  So I am qualified in my statements.   Have a good one.  

[stevieg]

18 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

It wouldn't surprise me if it was something along the lines of the timer setup getting delayed due to some higher priority operation intervening and they miss the level change when the button is released. The timer later expires, they check the button, the state was already released and so they do nothing.

Many thanks for that insight.

That would also fit with the other issue that I have been getting not infrequently. When the camera is on a tripod and I have Live View on, I will activate the 2s timer (eventually!) via the top Fn button. If I then try to magnify/focus aid the screen for critical focus, I often can't get the scroll wheel click to register and also I can't always get the touch screen to register my finger pressing on the area of the sensor to magnify. The little + that should show which area is to be magnified often takes multiple finger presses to activate.

I often need to half press the shutter to clear the 2s red circle in order to then activate the magnification/focus aid.

Multiple competing processes.... (self timer, focus aid, touch screen area for magnification)?

[paulsydaus]

1 hour ago, mikek61 said:

No, I'm not frickin insane.  I have over 30 years of operations, mfg and supplychain experience in high tech.   So I know how this process works. I know how defects are analyzed in the QA process.  Leica would have the ability to analyze the defects without getting any of the bodies back.   You are the one that thinks you know it all.  The only thing you are qualified in at the moment is being arrogant and condescending.   Companies do not just take back hardware if there is the possibility of a remote solution.   That would be fiscally irresponsible.  As an electrical engineer, you should know that.   Leica not only took back defective bodies from customers, they also recalled some bodies from the stores,  I know this for a fact.   That action indicates a hardware issue.  What I don't know is what percentage of bodies shipped are effected.  As I said, it seems like there are more good bodies than bad out there.  Which also leads me to a hardware issue.   Even if the bugs only show up under certain conditions, Firmware issues tend to be present in all bodies.   Enough said, I'm done.     

Let’s agree to disagree.

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[M11 for me]

Am 18.1.2022 um 04:59 schrieb Camaro5:

I am really surprised so many of you are having issues right out of the gate.  If I had just spend $9K on a camera and it didn't work right I would be furious.  

Do not worry. These are just a few users in the Forum. The great majority is very happy. The internet amplifies things. All the happy ones do not post that here.