Why I will not be getting a M11...

[rtakeoka]

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1 hour ago, SrMi said:

What shutter speed and shutter mode did you use in your test?

I usually set SS dial to 1/500 so I tried M11 with 1/500 and auto ISO.

The lag from pressing the button to image captured was bigger than M10s in my personal feelings becauae the captured subject position was different.  It's not strict test so no problem if you don't feel the lag.

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[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, rtakeoka said:

I usually set SS dial to 1/500 so I tried M11 with 1/500 and auto ISO.

The lag from pressing the button to image captured was bigger than M10s in my personal feelings becauae the captured subject position was different.  It's not strict test so no problem if you don't feel the lag.

Note that there is a bug in M11 that requires setting Auto Review to something else than off; otherwise, you will not be able to press the shutter often enough. Also, the lag is longer in electronic shutter mode. 
M10-R's shutter lag, including human reaction, is about 227ms (according to Sean Reid's measurements). No M11 photographer has yet noticed the 10-17ms increase in shutter lag. 
If you decide to get an M11, I doubt that you will notice it in practice.

[rtakeoka]

7 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Note that there is a bug in M11 that requires setting Auto Review to something else than off; otherwise, you will not be able to press the shutter often enough. Also, the lag is longer in electronic shutter mode. 
M10-R's shutter lag, including human reaction, is about 227ms (according to Sean Reid's measurements). No M11 photographer has yet noticed the 10-17ms increase in shutter lag. 
If you decide to get an M11, I doubt that you will notice it in practice.

Thank you very much for the information.  I re-consider to get it or not.

Store person where I tried M11 also said the lag is difficult point for street photographers and M11 doesn't suit my purpose.  But maybe the firmware bug is not in our mind.

[ELAN]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

No M11 photographer has yet noticed the 10-17ms increase in shutter lag.

Well, that's not exactly accurate.  I may not notice milliseconds but I do notice a slightly sluggish shutter experience on the M11 compare to the M10-P.  It's not a big difference at all, but to say it doesn't exist isn't my experience. The shutter close-open-close-open thing is felt, and it sounds longer than on the M10-P.  And click-click-click does feel ever so slightly slower and I think the shutter button travel is a tiny bit longer on the M11.  Given a choice I prefer the M10-P shutter feel, however, the image quality out of the M11 (and some other features) greatly outweigh the degradation I feel in the shutter.

[SrMi]

9 minutes ago, ELAN said:

Well, that's not exactly accurate.  I may not notice milliseconds but I do notice a slightly sluggish shutter experience on the M11 compare to the M10-P.  It's not a big difference at all, but to say it doesn't exist isn't my experience. The shutter close-open-close-open thing is felt, and it sounds longer than on the M10-P.  And click-click-click does feel ever so slightly slower and I think the shutter button travel is a tiny bit longer on the M11.  Given a choice I prefer the M10-P shutter feel, however, the image quality out of the M11 (and some other features) greatly outweigh the degradation I feel in the shutter.

If I understand you correctly, you are not experiencing the shutter lag, i.e., you are not too late to capture a moment. Instead, you experience the change in the shutter activation, especially the additional 'clunk' of shutter opening at the end. So the whole shutter operation sounds longer, but that is not the shutter lag, and it does not decrease the maximum number of shots per second.
Is that correct?

[ELAN]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

If I understand you correctly, you are not experiencing the shutter lag, i.e., you are not too late to capture a moment. Instead, you experience the change in the shutter activation, especially the additional 'clunk' of shutter opening at the end. So the whole shutter operation sounds longer, but that is not the shutter lag, and it does not decrease the maximum number of shots per second.
Is that correct?

I don't think the camera is late to capture the moment, at least not something that I can measure.  It's more of a feel that the shutter operation isn't as smooth as with the M10-P.  Perhaps it's the longer shutter operation or longer sound or longer shutter button travel that's throwing me off.

[shirubadanieru]

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4 hours ago, rtakeoka said:

Thank you very much for the information.  I re-consider to get it or not.

Store person where I tried M11 also said the lag is difficult point for street photographers and M11 doesn't suit my purpose.  But maybe the firmware bug is not in our mind.

I use the M11 only for street photography. No issues. Again, M9 lag is higher & I used that for years for street and never had issues. M10 is 20ms faster than M11, 20ms..my brain doesn't even know how to count 20ms.

[LocalHero1953]

26 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

I use the M11 only for street photography. No issues. Again, M9 lag is higher & I used that for years for street and never had issues. M10 is 20ms faster than M11, 20ms..my brain doesn't even know how to count 20ms.

20ms is 1/50 sec -  a recognisable interval for a photographer thinking about subject movement. 

[shirubadanieru]

2 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

20ms is 1/50 sec -  a recognisable interval for a photographer thinking about subject movement. 

Thank you for counting on behalf of my brain lol

It's still insignificant, if we look at the difference between the M9 and M10 it's also 40ms slower on the M9..never felt any difference when shooting street. Also, compared to film (which I guess shutter delay on film is like 17ms?) the difference is similar, and again never felt any difference in getting my subject as soon as I wanted it. M10 (40ms) to film (17ms) it's also a 20+ ms difference.

Again if you are shooting fast action, sports etc and you need the car or whatever it is to be exact you might notice it, but I shoot film side by side with digital and that has never impacted my photography even with the M9 (which has a 60+ ms difference VS film). 

I have no idea what the shutter lag is on a regular mirrorless camera like the SL or Sony / Fujifilm, if someone knows please share : ) 

[lct]

•

Edited February 7, 2022 by lct

[lct]

27 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

I have no idea what the shutter lag is on a regular mirrorless camera like the SL or Sony / Fujifilm, if someone knows please share : )

20ms on A7r2 according to Sony specs. Nothing to be proud of but reactivity seems to remain a problem at Leica as far as M cameras are concerned at least.  

[SrMi]

50 minutes ago, lct said:

20ms on A7r2 according to Sony specs. Nothing to be proud of but reactivity seems to remain a problem at Leica as far as M cameras are concerned at least.  

That is likely in prefocused mode (manual focus and half-pressing shutter button).

Imaging resource has measured the shutter lag for a7rIII (link😞

• manual focused: 105ms (no half-press)
• prefocused: 20ms (with half-press)

Imaging resource also measured the shutter lag for M9 (link😞

• any mode: 125ms

Sean Reid approximated the following shutter lags:

• M10R: 47ms
• M11: 64ms

I do not know if Sean's numbers can be compared with the numbers from Imaging Resource.

 

[rtakeoka]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

That is likely in prefocused mode (manual focus and half-pressing shutter button).

Imaging resource has measured the shutter lag for a7rIII (link😞

• manual focused: 105ms (no half-press)
• prefocused: 20ms (with half-press)

Imaging resource also measured the shutter lag for M9 (link😞

• any mode: 125ms

Sean Reid approximated the following shutter lags:

• M10R: 47ms
• M11: 64ms

I do not know if Sean's numbers can be compared with the numbers from Imaging Resource.

 

+17ms(+36%!) seems big increase but it's caused by firmware bug, right?

[SrMi]

18 minutes ago, rtakeoka said:

+17ms(+36%!) seems big increase but it's caused by firmware bug, right?

The increase is not a firmware bug, but by design. AFAIK, no M11 owner has noticed the increase in practice (though the shutter feels and sounds differently).
The increase is small (7%) if you add 180ms human reaction time to the shutter lag. The real numbers we should be comparing are 227ms vs. 244ms. BTW, Leica said that the increase is only 10ms. 

[LocalHero1953]

I don't have the M11, but I understand the default shutter position powered off is closed, so it has to open (with a clunk) on powering on. That is different from other mirrorless cameras - my CL and SL2-S are both open when powered down and there is no clunk on switching on. What could be the reason for this difference in the M11? Dust protection during lens changes? 

Edited February 8, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[IkarusJohn]

Umm …

[harmen]

These discussions about perceivable differences are quite funny especially once you hold an M11 in your own hands.  Yes, the sound is different, while the ability to take a shot right when you want to is - in my perception - unchanged.  Now, what really threw me off is when using the electronic shutter.  That is very confusing, because without any sound at all I kept thinking it had not fired.  So I would say the part that is harder to get used to is when there is no ‘clunk’ or ‘swish’ at all 😂

I do miss the familiar sound of my M-A, though again especially for low shutter speeds, which already always had a different sound on all these electronic machines.

[lct]

10 hours ago, SrMi said:

That is likely in prefocused mode (manual focus and half-pressing shutter button).

Imaging resource has measured the shutter lag for a7rIII (link😞

• manual focused: 105ms (no half-press)
• prefocused: 20ms (with half-press)

Imaging resource also measured the shutter lag for M9 (link😞

• any mode: 125ms

Sean Reid approximated the following shutter lags:

• M10R: 47ms
• M11: 64ms

I do not know if Sean's numbers can be compared with the numbers from Imaging Resource.

I have no idea. I was just quoting Sony specs above but what do you mean when you say that the M11 can do click-click-click in RF mode knowing that the M11 is in LV mode all the time? Does it mean that you can do click-click and the third click does not fire or that you must do a fourth click to get your third photo? An M11 variant will have a larger buffer as often i guess but i would like to understand how the current model works if you don't mind.

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[Photoworks]

55 minutes ago, lct said:

I have no idea. I was just quoting Sony specs above but what do you mean when you say that the M11 can do click-click-click in RF mode knowing that the M11 is in LV mode all the time? Does it mean that you can do click-click and the third click does not fire or that you must do a fourth click to get your third photo? An M11 variant will have a larger buffer as often i guess but i would like to understand how the current model works if you don't mind.

at 60mp DNG+JPG you can take 3 shots quickly and then there is a little buffer pause, but you can still shoot..

at 36MP you are at the same buffer speed of the M10-R and you can shoot and shoot.

The sound of the shudder is different. I like the M10-R shudder better.

[lct]

2 hours ago, harmen said:

These discussions about perceivable differences are quite funny especially once you hold an M11 in your own hands.  Yes, the sound is different, while the ability to take a shot right when you want to is - in my perception - unchanged.  Now, what really threw me off is when using the electronic shutter.  That is very confusing, because without any sound at all I kept thinking it had not fired.  So I would say the part that is harder to get used to is when there is no ‘clunk’ or ‘swish’ at all 😂

Because you are not used to mirrorless cameras i guess. They all behave the same in "silent mode" i.e. e-shutter mode so the harder part is wondering where this incongruous noise comes from .