Leica M12 -- your next camera?

[Anbaric]

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10 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Studying the forums and counting the good and bad cases recently I would confidently say that, after churning out the numbers, the problem with faulty M11 software to a certain degree is somewhere at 50:50 ratio of all M11s sold in 2 years.

I have no axe to grind here and I suspect the M11 does indeed have bugs in its design or implementation, but your stats will only be informative if your sample is representative of all M11s sold. For a sample trawled from forum posts, I think that's unlikely to be the case. Although some (but certainly not all) forum threads seek both positive and negative feedback, it would hardly be surprising if users are more motivated to post about bad experiences than good ones, and when there is no specific request to share good experiences too, threads will tend to be skewed heavily towards complaints. Some people may only be joining forums in the first place if they have issues.

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8 hours ago, wizard said:

I fully agree with you. Unless Leica comes up with an ingenious way of replicating this rangefinder focusing experience in an EVF, any EVF M camera will be flawed. I actually use the optical viewfinder to focus very quickly, and then switch to the Visoflex 2 for composing the shot. 

That way of focusing and framing reminds me an older M (screw mount type III) have two small windows next to each other, one sees the RF circle patch and another one sees the fixed frame line in OVF .

It would be nice if Leica squeeze Visoflex 2 (mini version in size) into the body next to 0.73 OVF/RF when building M12. 

 

[lct]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

I’m curious - how does user error result in bricked cameras, freezes and corrupted files?  Sure, if you use your M11 as a hammer or something else is wasn’t designed for, but everything I’ve read about the M11 is people using the camera to, umm … take photos?  Not a matter of opinion …

Are you asking for a reply John? Just curious as you you give me the impression of taking me for an idiot. I don't mind much, but I'd rather know it so as not to waste my time.

[IkarusJohn]

14 minutes ago, lct said:

Are you asking for a reply John? Just curious as you you give me the impression of taking me for an idiot. I don't mind much, but I'd rather know it so as not to waste my time.

It’s a fair question.  Answer or don’t.

A camera comes with features and controls.  Seems odd to me that faults and failures (however few) arise from using the camera.  I think we all know that shooting directly into the sun or with the lens cap on won’t result in a usable image.  Reads like shooting the messenger to me …

[lct]

3 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

It’s a fair question.  Answer or don’t.

A camera comes with features and controls.  Seems odd to me that faults and failures (however few) arise from using the camera.  I think we all know that shooting directly into the sun or with the lens cap on won’t result in a usable image.  Reads like shooting the messenger to me …

So what is your question exactly? I'm sure you understand that any camera maker gives instructions and recommendations to their clients. Do you want examples?

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

People like me still think, rightly or wrongly, that such issues come mainly, if not only, from user errors or behaviours more so than firmware bugs

What user errors?

[lct]

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17 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

What user errors?

Examples of user errors? I have seen some of them already. You have no experience with M11 cameras i believe so i will start with M8 intructions that remained more or less the same in later cameras including the M11. M8 instructions said that "When using aperture priority and manual exposure setting in conjunction with a lens without 6-bit coding, the camera’s identification function must always be turned off, to prevent malfunctions". Later on, the M11 instructions said that "the lens type must be entered manually when using a Leica M lens without 6-bit encoding". Those instructions were clear enough to me but some users were still using lens detection auto for uncoded lenses so Leica had to disable this feature for uncoded lenses in a later firmware update accordingly.

[IkarusJohn]

29 minutes ago, lct said:

Examples of user errors? I have seen some of them already. You have no experience with M11 cameras i believe so i will start with M8 intructions that remained more or less the same in later cameras including the M11. M8 instructions said that "When using aperture priority and manual exposure setting in conjunction with a lens without 6-bit coding, the camera’s identification function must always be turned off, to prevent malfunctions". Later on, the M11 instructions said that "the lens type must be entered manually when using a Leica M lens without 6-bit encoding". Those instructions were clear enough to me but some users were still using lens detection auto for uncoded lenses so Leica had to disable this feature for uncoded lenses in a later firmware update accordingly.

Interesting. 

Speaking purely for myself, I have had a number of uncoded lenses, never turned off the Auto lens detect function (M9, Monochrom, M Edition 60 & M10-D, along with TL, TL2 and SL), and have never had a freeze or corrupted file as a result.  In each case, the uncoded lens was recorded as the last lens I’d set manually.   The reason I’m confident of this is I know exactly when I’ve used an uncoded lens (15 Distagon, 75 Summilux, 50 Summitar, 35 Summilux pre-ASPH, 135 Elmar, 35 Distagon).  

As you say, I don’t have an M11, so I haven’t had this problem; but it seems to be a “user error” unique to that camera.  I’d put that one down to Leica, myself.

Do you have other examples of user error?  

[lct]

2 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Do you have other examples of user error?  

Sure but we will see this tomorrow if you don't mind as it is yet 04:40 AM here in Normandy. 😴

[IkarusJohn]

While @lct is sleeping, I thought I’d check some user manuals.

M Edition 60:

Quote

They can be used regardless of the lens features, and whether the lens does or does not have 6-bit coding in the bayonet. Even without this additional feature, i.e. when using Leica M lenses without identification, the camera will deliver excellent pictures in most situations.

Monochrom (Henri):

Quote

Even without this additional feature, i.e. when using Leica M lenses without identification, the Leica M Monochrom will deliver excellent pictures in most situations.

M10-D:

Quote

Most Leica M lenses can be used with any lens equipment (with or without 6-bit encoding in the bayonet). Your camera will also deliver great pictures with Leica M lenses without encoding. We recommend entering the lens model type manually to ensure the best possible image quality (see p.  40).

[And at p. 40]

USING A LEICA M LENS WITHOUT 6-BIT ENCODING

A standard profi le will be used if a Leica M lens without 6-bit encoding is attached. No lens data will be saved to the EXIF data.

Interestingly, there is no way to manually select an uncoded lens with the M10-D.

Finally, the same section from the M11-P manual:

Quote

LEICA M LENSES
Most Leica M lenses can be used with any lens equipment (with or
without 6-bit encoding in the bayonet). Your camera will also deliver
great photographs when using Leica M lenses without encoding. We
recommend entering the lens model type manually to ensure the
best possible image quality (see p. 38).

[And at p. 38]

USING A LEICA M LENS WITHOUT 6-BIT ENCODING
The lens type must be entered manually when using a Leica M lens
without 6-bit encoding.
▸ Select Lens Detection in the main menu
▸ Select Manual M
▸ Select the attached lens from the list
•
The lenses are listed with their focal length, apertures and item
number.

No mention of malfunction, but interesting it first says “we recommend” and then says “must be entered”.  Not sure that’s enough. I’d read that as meaning “if you want the benefits of lens identification, not that the camera might freeze, brick or not record an image.

Edited May 23, 2024 by IkarusJohn

[SrMi]

5 hours ago, hjddd said:

there is one thing we can assure， M12 series will have even worse building quality than older models。 If you have every model from M9 to M11-P like me， you will understand what Iam talking about 。 

I have not noticed any degradation in build quality from M8 to M11 (and everything in-between). It was always top-notch.

Edited May 23, 2024 by SrMi

[IkarusJohn]

Indeed, it’s a privilege!  Next thing, they’ll want to use the photos!  Unbelievable. 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

If you study my post carefully you will see that my empirical method refers to all M11s ever sold so far. Using inferential statistics as I wrote involves the use of a certain sample (in my case faulty AND flawless cameras from testimonials) to estimate characteristic of a large population, i.e. all M11 cameras made. As scientific as it gets without wizardry or conspiracy theories.

An owner of a faulty camera is much more likely to post a testimony than an owner of a perfectly working camera. I would also discard “testimonials” of posters who know somebody who knows somebody that has a faulty camera.

I do not think that you have a representative sample on LUF that you can make conclusions from.

[SrMi]

9 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

There was a big thread here by admin and both working and faulty camera owners chipped in. For every faulty sample everywhere else - LUF was just one of the places I sampled - there is almost always one perfectly working camera testimony. I am pretty confident my math is correct, the 50:50 ratio must have also prompted the LUF admin to do the big thread poll on the matter; the problem does not seem to be marginal to do that on behalf of Leica.

That is not my experience. But as they say: never trust a statistics that you did not falsify yourself;).

[Datsch]

On 5/22/2024 at 7:39 AM, Smogg said:

With the EVF you can only focus when the aperture is wide open, and I, for example, almost never shoot wide open.

Thanks! I had forgotten about that. I like to shoot at f11 to get big depth of focus but it would be a real pain to crank wide open or enough to see clearly, focus, by pressing various zoom in/out and show/hide peaking buttons and then have to stop down (and pray for no focus shift though not a big deal at f11) before finally pressing the shutter release .... this completely wipes out any idea of EVF for me (not that I was much interested in the first place). All that is done automatic by a flybywire lens of course.

[Datsch]

18 hours ago, Al Brown said:

I did a count of 114 cases and the ratio was 48% with no problems vs. 52% with problems.

I found about the same, having done a simlar count showing 53% trouble free in a post here:

Many of the 'trouble' cameras in my sample were 'mild' ie occasional or rare context-specific freezes, so  If new firmware fixes these "occasional freezes" then we would make a jump to IDK just guessing 25% problems -- leaving 'just' the severe regular freezing, lost images, overexposures, returns to dealer, to Wetzlar and other issues. Still disconcerting odds for buying a new camera ...

Edited May 23, 2024 by Datsch

[Anbaric]

2 hours ago, Al Brown said:

If you study my post carefully you will see that my empirical method refers to all M11s ever sold so far. Using inferential statistics as I wrote involves the use of a certain sample (in my case faulty AND flawless cameras from testimonials) to estimate characteristic of a large population, i.e. all M11 cameras made. As scientific as it gets without wizardry or conspiracy theories.

I understand your post. The question isn't whether your calculations are correct, it's whether you are starting with a random sample that is truly representative of the larger population of all M11s. If it isn't, the results won't be valid. This is why (say) opinion polls for upcoming elections don't rely on web surveys where the subjects select themselves; instead, the pollsters go out of their way to find a representative sample of voters before asking them how they intend to vote. You mention one thread that invited both positive and negative feedback, but even there I suspect negative feedback may be overrepresented because users with problems may be more motivated to seek out such threads and post in them. And how about the other threads you used?

As an example, here are scores for Amazon UK from sites that collect both negative and positive reviews of various businesses:

https://www.resellerratings.com/store/Amazon_co_uk

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.amazon.co.uk

If I just read those scores, I might assume Amazon is a terrible place to order stuff from. But that isn't my experience, or the experience of most people I know, who use Amazon all the time. I suspect the feedback is skewed strongly towards people with problems. I rarely have issues with Amazon, and I haven't bothered contributing a positive review to either site. But if they sent me a faulty camera and refused a refund, I would probably write an appropriate review on both!

[IkarusJohn]

I don’t really think the issue has anything to do with percentages of affected cameras.  The point is, we have seen here many times people posting - “I don’t have a problem with my M11, therefore there isn’t a problem!”

Even if only 10% of cameras are affected, it still isn’t good enough.

Two points to consider - (1) Leica has history of downplaying problems with products (they tried to pretend there wasn’t an issue with the M9 corrosion, if you/we recall); and (2) this issue seems to be a bad combination of hardware and software - in certain random scenarios, the camera fails.  That seems to be a fact, even if you just us the camera as intended.

If, the way one user sets up and uses his camera doesn’t cause a problem, while another has problems (and there have been plenty of them), then there is a problem.  The fact the Leica is trying to fix this (chasing a tiger by the tail) would suggest that, yes there is a problem.

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[Kiwimac]

Once they admitted the M9 sensor issue they had quite a good program to address it at least. 
 

I think one of the unedifying aspects of the various M11 issues is that Leica haven’t really had a mea culpa moment nor been clear what they think the issue(s) is/are and what they will do for owners. 
 

For example if they said it’s caused by X and we’ll offer users a 5 year warranty on all M11 bodies in recognition of the error, at least people would feel that their concerns were being addressed. 

Fortunately I’ve not yet had serious issues but it feels like there’s definitely some kind of issue or issues and that Leica ought to be up front. 
 

Even Porsche, Bentley etc have manufacturer’s recalls without brand damage so Leica should be able to manage it. 

[acalmplace]

As I read posts with wishlists for a future M12, I oscillate between 'Oh please no!' to 'That would certainly tempt me...' I'm sure if we grouped how people react, we might get a few different wish 'camps.'

In my case, I chose the Leica M because it offers something different (and better for my use case) and would not want to see its fundamentals changed in a way that removes this singular difference.

What would make me consider upgrading to an M12 in the future (I'm really happy with my M11 so far):

-An improved optical rangefinder experience (fewer and better framelines, diopter options, led improvements, 2 or 3 magnifications, etc.);

-An improved sensor (not so much res, but less colour vignetting, even better highlight recovery).

-Faster turn-on and wake up times;

-A quieter and more responsive mechanical shutter.

What would give me pause though are all the things that add to the complexity or number of options, or add to the reasons for me to use the screen and dive in menus (for example losing the exposure triangle by removing the ISO dial). I would also not be attracted by an important change to the camera's form factor.