Leica M11 Review by Jono Slack

[FrankX]

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vor einer Stunde schrieb tom0511:

I have also seen more purplefringing with the M11 compared to M10r, for example with the 28 Summilux.

 

Do you see it also more pronounced at 36 MP? Would be interesting to answer if it’s a sensor or resolution effect…

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[Tailwagger]

4 hours ago, FrankX said:

Do you see it also more pronounced at 36 MP? Would be interesting to answer if it’s a sensor or resolution effect…

I cant say, as I haven't shot a 36Mpx, however, I did do a day at 18Mpx (accidentally) and I would say in reviewing those shots that, as you'd expect, fringing is less visible. I think it would require a bit of side by side testing with the 10-R to say anything definitive as to whether or not the sensor, other then MPx, is having any effect. But I think the more interesting question you raise is the effect of pixel binning itself. One could imagine baking in some intelligence into the algorithm to detect and de-fringe as a part of the compression process, if not today, perhaps in a future update. 

[mmradman]

8 hours ago, ELAN said:

I've also been seeing an increase in purple fringing wide open.  Here's a 100% crop from a 35 lux (pre-FLE) wide open, SOOC, rising sun at my back.  This lens never fringes this much on the M10-P (the 28 lux does get close).

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Non issue, who shoots into the daylight sky fast lens at maximum aperture other than to pick nits?

I have seen same purple fringing on Summilux 21, 28 and 35 FLE used with M240 which is, reminder, only 24Mp. Perhaps, as mentioned by others, effect enhanced on 60Mp M11 but it is principally lens thing.

[ELAN]

1 hour ago, mmradman said:

Non issue, who shoots into the daylight sky fast lens at maximum aperture other than to pick nits?

I do.  And it's an issue for me.  As stated, the sun is just rising behind me, hardly daylight sky.  Click twice on that cropped image for full res and observe the purple fringing. I've never seen so much CA from my Summiluxes before, including the 28 lux.  Here's the unedited full image, not really a shot into daylight sky.

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Edited January 29, 2022 by ELAN

[tom0511]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb FrankX:

Do you see it also more pronounced at 36 MP? Would be interesting to answer if it’s a sensor or resolution effect…

I haven't checked at 36MP. By the way - in LR it was easy to get rid of the purple fringing. So I don't expect it to be a problem. But the M10r seems to do better, or maybe its better corrected in software.

Edited January 29, 2022 by tom0511

[mmradman]

1 hour ago, ELAN said:

I do.  And it's an issue for me.  As stated, the sun is just rising behind me, hardly daylight sky.  Click twice on that cropped image for full res and observe the purple fringing. I've never seen so much CA from my Summiluxes before, including the 28 lux.  Here's the unedited full image, not really a shot into daylight sky.

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Premium Helga 😂.

It seems we have “flawed” yet premium priced optics in our hands.  Remedy, close down or use sliders in ACR. Perhaps Leica could include software correction, or maybe trying to incentivise us to use L system with APO prime lenses.  It would be interesting what Leica Chief Optical Designer would have to say, or Beta Tester in Chief.

Edited January 29, 2022 by mmradman

[adan]

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5 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

One could imagine baking in some intelligence into the algorithm to detect and de-fringe as a part of the compression process,

But how does the CPU "know" if the purple is a fringe - or just an out-of-focus bathing-suit in the background?

I've watched Camera Raw's de-fringe controls at work - and they have a nasty habit of eating into the edges of things that are actually purple - or red - or green - unless carefully supervised.

At this point I'm even careful about which lenses I buy - do they produce red fringes (90mm Summicron v.3, 90 Summarits) or purple fringes (90 Elmarit-M). Because there are a lot more "primary red" objects in the world than "primary purple/magenta" - so it is easier to remove purple fringes with  "dumb automation" (if that's not a tautology - ) without nibbling into the actual colors.

[adan]

4 hours ago, ELAN said:

I do.  And it's an issue for me.  As stated, the sun is just rising behind me, hardly daylight sky.  Click twice on that cropped image for full res and observe the purple fringing. I've never seen so much CA from my Summiluxes before, including the 28 lux.  Here's the unedited full image, not really a shot into daylight sky.

A blown-out sky is a blown-out sky.

Doesn't matter if it is shot at dawn, or in noon daylight, or midnight. If it is virtually white in the picture (but was not virtually white in real life) - it has been grossly overexposed, and "blown."

And that will exaggerate whatever fringing is present.

I took measurements from your image - your sky is pure white (250+ brightness level) in the places that the worst purple is present. Here's the threshold mask - everything pure white here was pure white ("blown out") in your picture.

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The M11 may have very good dynamic range, but it is not infinite. If the sky is in your image - meter with the sky in mind, or expect to have problems.

Basic rule of digital imaging - "Expose for the highlights; post-process for the shadows."

[mmradman]

Before M8 and M9 Leica were adamant that digital RF would not be feasible mostly due to light ray angle hitting the sensor surface, in the end they delivered miracle, with few bumps along the way, like IR contamination, corroding sensor, etc.

Leica also developed dedicated Monochrom RF digital cameras which are very good with pesky colour fringing.

[jonoslack]

5 hours ago, ELAN said:

I do.  And it's an issue for me.  As stated, the sun is just rising behind me, hardly daylight sky.  Click twice on that cropped image for full res and observe the purple fringing. I've never seen so much CA from my Summiluxes before, including the 28 lux.  Here's the unedited full image, not really a shot into daylight sky.

 

 

32 minutes ago, adan said:

A blown-out sky is a blown-out sky.

Doesn't matter if it is shot at dawn, or in noon daylight, or midnight. If it is virtually white in the picture (but was not virtually white in real life) - it has been grossly overexposed, and "blown."

And that will exaggerate whatever fringing is present.

I took measurements from your image - your sky is pure white (250+ brightness level) in the places that the worst purple is present. Here's the threshold mask - everything pure white here was pure white ("blown out") in your picture.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

The M11 may have very good dynamic range, but it is not infinite. If the sky is in your image - meter with the sky in mind, or expect to have problems.

Basic rule of digital imaging - "Expose for the highlights; post-process for the shadows."

Hi There Elan

I'm absolutely with Andy here - overexposing the sky makes a perfect storm of purple . . . . but either way, CA is a product of the lens, not of the sensor, although of course if you have more pixels you'll have more purple pixels! 

It certainly isn't something I've had any extra problem with using the M11 (even with some very old lenses). 

As Andy says (and puts it so nicely)
 

"Expose for the highlights; post-process for the shadows."

 

all the best

[Tailwagger]

44 minutes ago, adan said:

But how does the CPU "know" if the purple is a fringe - or just an out-of-focus bathing-suit in the background?

I see my short treatise on ML was lost on you. No worries, I didn't really get it either. 😃  That said, I'd bet that detection and removal of fringing is a good candidate for ML (but likely not in camera).

Conventional or otherwise, it would have to be noticing edges with thin lines of purple pixels abutting them and rejecting areas that didn't fit that pattern. But I suspect it would probably require more HP than it's worth.  As an aside related to purple bathings suits, one of the annoyances I have with Adobe and camera raw is that the full suite of defringing tools is not available when using filters. When I mentioned I was finding fringe removal a little easier, it was exactly this problem of eating into other areas you mentioned I was channeling. 

 

[ELAN]

8 hours ago, adan said:

A blown-out sky is a blown-out sky.

But the sky isn't blown out.  Here's the image processed with exposure at -1, including the histogram, so you can see than not a single pixel is clipped!

I understand about purple fringing and have been removing it in LR for ages.  Especially with the 28 lux that tends to fringe more than others.  And I understand too that 60 MP would amplify all flaws in the lens compared to 24 MP.  I am simply confirming others' observations that purple fringing appears more pronounced with the new sensor, even without pixel peeping.

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Edited January 30, 2022 by ELAN

[M Journey]

23 hours ago, ELAN said:

I've also been seeing an increase in purple fringing wide open.  Here's a 100% crop from a 35 lux (pre-FLE) wide open, SOOC, rising sun at my back.  This lens never fringes this much on the M10-P (the 28 lux does get close).

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I’ve done test shots like this where I am shifting into the sun peeking behind branches and leaves and have seen zero fringing.  I wonder if this is more prone on older lenses?  The m11 has thinner glass on top of the sensor and I wonder if this optimizes newer lens at the cost of performance on older lense designs?

[SrMi]

44 minutes ago, ELAN said:

But the sky isn't blown out.  Here's the image processed with exposure at -1, including the histogram, so you can see than not a single pixel is clipped!

I understand about purple fringing and have been removing it in LR for ages.  Especially with the 28 lux that tends to fringe more than others.  And I understand too that 60 MP would amplify all flaws in the lens compared to 24 MP.  I am simply confirming others' observations that purple fringing appears more pronounced with the new sensor, even without pixel peeping.

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Lightroom does not tell you reliably if highlights are clipped.

[oka]

...I noticed this problem noticeably on Noct50 (with M11). I haven't done any test so this might be good next comparison test to compare SL2S, M10R and M11 for purple fringe.

[adan]

2 hours ago, ELAN said:

But the sky isn't blown out.  Here's the image processed with exposure at -1,

If you have to drop the exposure in post-processing a full stop - and still get grays instead of blues in your sky gradient... (e.g. between the two tree trunks)

- then the camera exposure was clipped and the sky was blown out in those places. The gray is the image telling you "I don't have enough usable data here!"

I learned that all the way back to the M9 in 2009. Correct exposure for digital highlights is something you do taking the picture, not trying to rescue it later.

..............

Especially with the newer Ms  with improved dynamic range. The extra range is mostly in the shadows.

They have a lot of shadow detail that can be pulled out (using the Shadows slider instead of the Exposure slider). Which is hidden SOOC due to a strong default contrast curve.

M10 images below - SOOC (top), and with all the available shadow information revealed (bottom). Maybe even more than some would want (it looks a little HDR-ish) - but at least it is in there for the taking.

So again, expose in the camera for the highlights, and post-process for the shadows.

Thus protecting the areas (to get back on-topic) where the purple fringes may raise their nasty heads.

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Edited January 30, 2022 by adan

[Chaemono]

vor 35 Minuten schrieb adan:

If you have to drop the exposure in post-processing a full stop - and still get grays instead of blues in your sky gradient... (e.g. between the two tree trunks)

- then the camera exposure was clipped and the sky was blown out in those places. The gray is the image telling you "I don't have enough usable data here!"

I learned that all the way back to the M9 in 2009. Correct exposure for digital highlights is something you do taking the picture, not trying to rescue it later.

..............

Especially with the newer Ms  with improved dynamic range. The extra range is mostly in the shadows.

They have a lot of shadow detail that can be pulled out (using the Shadows slider instead of the Exposure slider). Which is hidden SOOC due to a strong default contrast curve.

M10 images below - SOOC (top), and with all the available shadow information revealed (bottom). Maybe even more than some would want (it looks a little HDR-ish) - but at least it is in there for the taking.

So again, expose in the camera for the highlights, and post-process for the shadows.

Thus protecting the areas (to get back on-topic) where the purple fringes may raise their nasty heads.

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I remember this post when the M10 first came out. Ever since I expose similarly. There’s is perhaps an understandable temptation with new cameras with better and better FF sensors and higher and higher MP count that according to reviews have greater and greater highlight detail recoverability to push the limits of exposure to the right in order avoid shadow noise. I remember this was an argument with the M10-R as well. Personally, I would refrain from doing it and would continue to expose just like with the M10. 

Among the last five here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-JkgxSt/, there are four pictures (two are crops of the other two) where the S3 was exposed to protect highlights and pushed to the permissible limit to the right. The crops show that the difference in the noise level is negligible and one must zoom in a lot to discern it.

[Dr Cron]

On 1/21/2022 at 4:28 PM, Sean ASA said:

Hi Jono, regarding your I Love new purchase 50mm DR. has removing the Classic three small sensors inside the bayonet and going Off señor only for metering allowed room for the Dual Range lens to be used. Or is this a modified version. Thanks. 

I too am interested in this - I have a wonderful copy of this 50 DR lens, with goggles, that I was lucky to pick up as my entry into the Leica world during lockdown, to go with my M3 (and now MP alongside a 35FLE) - thus the pun in my profile name.

I've seen one or two suggestions to the effect that the 50 DR can mount on the M11, though I have no further info about whether these are modified lenses.  I have also seen this review: https://t.co/9K25HLVGyx, according to which it is claimed that the 50 DR with goggles also works on the M11, though seemingly you have to unmount the lens from the body first to achieve this.  But I have no idea why this might be the case, and can't verify.  What I do know from the MP instructions is that you are advised to mount the DR to the MP with the lens set at infinity (again, I see variations on such advice for different bodies).  (Obviously the goggles are or may be pretty redundant, other than for the mount that engages the button to release the close-focusing range - would be nice perhaps for a smaller metal attachment to do this job and use an EVF for focusing on latest digital Ms without the otherwise necessary goggles?)

I'm interested to know the answer to these points here because frankly the M system is so amazing that I may decide I want to shoot with it even more than I can with film!  (I'm also e.g. interested to get travelling again in months/years ahead and don't really want any of my film x-rayed, and want to make my 10x8 Chamonix jealous 😁.  I've also e.g. re-edited some of the supplied dng files supplied alongside the frankly poor DPReview jpegs to convince myself that I can be bothered to go back to a digital workflow and get very satisfying results.)

 But I have no way of knowing whether my lens will work properly on an M11, can't tell (or don't know how to) whether my version has been modified (though I'm tending to assume not?), and am also assuming that no dealer in their right mind would allow one to try this out on an in-store demo camera (given e.g. what it technically advises in the manual)!

Any further enlightenment on this would be great.  I just watched the latest RDForum YouTube video today hoping they might have an answer but sadly not (so far).

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Edited January 30, 2022 by Dr Cron

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[Photoworks]

9 hours ago, ELAN said:

But the sky isn't blown out.  Here's the image processed with exposure at -1, including the histogram, so you can see than not a single pixel is clipped!

I understand about purple fringing and have been removing it in LR for ages.  Especially with the 28 lux that tends to fringe more than others.  And I understand too that 60 MP would amplify all flaws in the lens compared to 24 MP.  I am simply confirming others' observations that purple fringing appears more pronounced with the new sensor, even without pixel peeping.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

In your picture you say the highlight have been preserved. I don’t think the histogram is telling you watch you actually seeing. I can see that lightroom just turn your blow highlights in to gray and not into proper color.

Time and time again in my tests I can avoid some purple fringing if I under expose and don’t bring my highlights into danger territory

Typically when you have a sharp lens you get a lot of fringing unless it is corrected in the lens, APO. It doesn’t have to do much with the sensor the sensor is usually just taking the information from the lens. I use the noctilux  lens and I see a lot of purple fringing in my shots at 0.95, but closing the f-stop even half a click it will drastically reduce my purple fringing.

[jonoslack]

3 hours ago, Dr Cron said:

I too am interested in this - I have a wonderful copy of this 50 DR lens, with goggles, that I was lucky to pick up as my entry into the Leica world during lockdown, to go with my M3 (and now MP alongside a 35FLE) - thus the pun in my profile name.

I've seen one or two suggestions to the effect that the 50 DR can mount on the M11, though I have no further info about whether these are modified lenses.  I have also seen this review: https://t.co/9K25HLVGyx, according to which it is claimed that the 50 DR with goggles also works on the M11, though seemingly you have to unmount the lens from the body first to achieve this.  But I have no idea why this might be the case, and can't verify.  What I do know from the MP instructions is that you are advised to mount the DR to the MP with the lens set at infinity (again, I see variations on such advice for different bodies).  (Obviously the goggles are or may be pretty redundant, other than for the mount that engages the button to release the close-focusing range - would be nice perhaps for a smaller metal attachment to do this job and use an EVF for focusing on latest digital Ms without the otherwise necessary goggles?)

I'm interested to know the answer to these points here because frankly the M system is so amazing that I may decide I want to shoot with it even more than I can with film!  (I'm also e.g. interested to get travelling again in months/years ahead and don't really want any of my film x-rayed, and want to make my 10x8 Chamonix jealous 😁.  I've also e.g. re-edited some of the supplied dng files supplied alongside the frankly poor DPReview jpegs to convince myself that I can be bothered to go back to a digital workflow and get very satisfying results.)

 But I have no way of knowing whether my lens will work properly on an M11, can't tell (or don't know how to) whether my version has been modified (though I'm tending to assume not?), and am also assuming that no dealer in their right mind would allow one to try this out on an in-store demo camera (given e.g. what it technically advises in the manual)!

Any further enlightenment on this would be great.  I just watched the latest RDForum YouTube video today hoping they might have an answer but sadly not (so far).

 

Hi There Dr Cron

Apparently it says in the manual that the DR is not suitable for the M11, but I wonder if that isn't just a hangover from previous models. Certainly in one of the Wetzlar videos around the launch someone was using one, and that's what inspired me to get one - an unmodified one (but without goggles). It's in perfect condition optically and mint- as far as the body is concerned.

You need to mount it to the camera set to about 5ft otherwise it feels pretty graunchy. After that however it's rather magical and works extremely well on the M11. To change to the close focus you pull the lens forward slightly (it's spring loaded) and round the peg at 1 metre. Then just push the ball bearing whilst turning the focus ring and you can use the distances down to a little less than 1/2 Metre. 

I've had some great results, and it's a lens with real character!

As I say, the manual says don't use it, but it seems to work really well. The only limitation is that mounting it needs care with the focus ring set to 5 ft (I haven't tried setting it to infinity).

 

All the best