Leica M11 Review by Jono Slack

[gotium]

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22 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Hi Jeff

Of course you're right - especially saturation - I spent years taking up many hours profiling and reprofiling monitors and using a colour checker . . . . and then one day I had an epiphany and gave it all up. Daylight White Balance Rules (except in artificial light, where I use Auto and mess about with colour images on a photo by photo basis). I've saved myself a huge amount of time and effort . . . . . whether I've spoiled the photos is a moot point!

Best

Love the epiphany! I recurrently slip into color profiling (very amateur-level) when, every year or two, I try to get into a Sony system. A few weeks and many hours of frustration and fiddling later, I always just give up and just go back to using an M. Even if it is doable it's really nice to not spend time doing it. 

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

I don't create my own colour profiles because I don't think I'm better at colour management than Leica or Adobe (and also because I'm careless and lazy!)

. I would be too... But I mix camera brands, so I have no choice.  

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[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

Hi Jeff

Of course you're right - especially saturation - I spent years taking up many hours profiling and reprofiling monitors and using a colour checker . . . . and then one day I had an epiphany and gave it all up. Daylight White Balance Rules (except in artificial light, where I use Auto and mess about with colour images on a photo by photo basis). I've saved myself a huge amount of time and effort . . . . . whether I've spoiled the photos is a moot point!

Best

I get the time saving part.  I print regularly, and the built-in paper profiles in ImagePrint are superb and eliminate any need for custom profiling (plus full time soft proof mode, which reduces paper waste).  
 

But the key to all of this, which is demonstrated by your consistently fine results,  is having a ‘good eye’ and recognizing when, where and to what degree to tweak your picture rendering to get to a look you like. Just like every other aspect of photography; comes down to the user for the most part. 
 

Jeff

[MikeMyers]

2 hours ago, jonoslack said:

In daylight I shoot Sunny white balance (no matter if it's cloudy and grey or sunny). That means that one is treating the camera like a 'film stock' and getting a consistent colour across all situations - shoot DNG and you can always change it in post processing if it isn't what you want.

Curious, why would you set it to "words" that might change over time, instead of perhaps 5600K which is a precise setting that you can use on all your cameras, and we could all do the same on ours, if we haven't already done so?  

I set all my cameras to 5600K if it was available, and just left it there, on all my cameras.

[jonoslack]

2 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Curious, why would you set it to "words" that might change over time, instead of perhaps 5600K which is a precise setting that you can use on all your cameras, and we could all do the same on ours, if we haven't already done so?  

I set all my cameras to 5600K if it was available, and just left it there, on all my cameras.

Hi there Mike

I guess that makes sense, but it isn't just about the colour temperature but also the tint - I'm happy to settle for what the camera company decides for that - but the point is the same - it's a consistent starting point which you can work with later if you want to.

best

 

[M Journey]

4 hours ago, jslabovitz said:

The diopter on my Visoflex 020 often bumps off its setting, seemingly just from normal handling of the camera. (I leave the EVF on all the time.) Luckily I don't need any adjustment, so I can easily check to see if the dial is at zero. Lately I've started putting a tiny piece of black gaffer tape on the dial & EVF body to keep it locked down.

If you've had experience with the old EVF, do you think the diopter on the new one is as easily bumped? Is the dial perhaps recessed further than the old one?

I don’t have any experience with the 020 but the visoflex 2 diopter is very hard to adjust when I want it to, so it shouldn’t change settings accidentally from bumps.

[jaapv]

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5 hours ago, Jeff S said:

I get the time saving part.  I print regularly, and the built-in paper profiles in ImagePrint are superb and eliminate any need for custom profiling (plus full time soft proof mode, which reduces paper waste).  
 

But the key to all of this, which is demonstrated by your consistently fine results,  is having a ‘good eye’ and recognizing when, where and to what degree to tweak your picture rendering to get to a look you like. Just like every other aspect of photography; comes down to the user for the most part. 
 

Jeff

Which is exactly why all remarks and questions about the “colour rendering of cameras “ are essentially without substance and impossible to reply to. 

[benbux]

3 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Jaap and Jeff S have it . . . . . . . . but personally, I feel that different situations require different treatment, but I also feel that the real problem is that so many people who are absolutely fastidious about manually getting the exposure they want . . . . . and then they use Auto White Balance. 

In daylight I shoot Sunny white balance (no matter if it's cloudy and grey or sunny). That means that one is treating the camera like a 'film stock' and getting a consistent colour across all situations - shoot DNG and you can always change it in post processing if it isn't what you want. It's easy to make batch changes  . . . but I find a gallery of photos with AWB really hard to assess and more difficult to deal with. I don't create my own colour profiles because I don't think I'm better at colour management than Leica or Adobe (and also because I'm careless and lazy!)

Back to your question - I don't think the colour from the M11 is significantly different from that of the M10-R, and I like it - skin tones are, I think, better with the M11.

All the best

 

Thanks so much Jono, really appreciate the response! 

[eab]

3 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Jaap and Jeff S have it . . . . . . . . but personally, I feel that different situations require different treatment, but I also feel that the real problem is that so many people who are absolutely fastidious about manually getting the exposure they want . . . . . and then they use Auto White Balance. 

In daylight I shoot Sunny white balance (no matter if it's cloudy and grey or sunny). That means that one is treating the camera like a 'film stock' and getting a consistent colour across all situations - shoot DNG and you can always change it in post processing if it isn't what you want. It's easy to make batch changes  . . . but I find a gallery of photos with AWB really hard to assess and more difficult to deal with. I don't create my own colour profiles because I don't think I'm better at colour management than Leica or Adobe (and also because I'm careless and lazy!)

Back to your question - I don't think the colour from the M11 is significantly different from that of the M10-R, and I like it - skin tones are, I think, better with the M11.

All the best

 

Jono,

First, than you very much, your review it was very helpful in understanding some of the less tangible aspects of the camera, both your words and photos provided a good feeling about the M11 which at the end of the day for me, what it is all about, thank you.

Your comments regarding the AWB provided an "Oh yea", kind of moment.  I am relatively new to this and I think this suggestion will allow me to better understand what is really going on when I look at a series of photos and try to learn from them.

In your conversations with Leica was there ever confirmation of pixel binning as the mechanism to provide multiple sizes of DNGs ( I assume so but not sure, if I missed the confirmation)?  Do you know if this is done by custom hardware or is it all in firmware?  

Thanks again for the beautiful photographs, straight forward presentation, and mojo.

Eric

 

[jonoslack]

16 minutes ago, eab said:

Jono,

First, than you very much, your review it was very helpful in understanding some of the less tangible aspects of the camera, both your words and photos provided a good feeling about the M11 which at the end of the day for me, what it is all about, thank you.

Your comments regarding the AWB provided an "Oh yea", kind of moment.  I am relatively new to this and I think this suggestion will allow me to better understand what is really going on when I look at a series of photos and try to learn from them.

In your conversations with Leica was there ever confirmation of pixel binning as the mechanism to provide multiple sizes of DNGs ( I assume so but not sure, if I missed the confirmation)?  Do you know if this is done by custom hardware or is it all in firmware?  

Thanks again for the beautiful photographs, straight forward presentation, and mojo.

Eric

 

Hi There Eric

The AWB issue is a real bee in my bonnet, but it's nice that you (and some others) are thinking "Oh Yea". AWB might do a good job, but given a scene where half is in shadow and half is in light it must make a decision . . . and another picture where the shadow and light areas vary a bit it will obviously make a different decision, but the light isn't different! Conventional wisdom says use a grey card - but thats a hassle and still not easy. Accepting 'sunny' gives you a consistent reading (which you can always change). 

I'm pretty certain that the pixel binning is firmware rather than hardware related (but I'm not absolutely certain). 

I'm glad you liked the mojo - honestly - it might sound stupid, but I'm trying to entertain!

best

[eab]

@jono, right, I get it now.  

I was curious about the binning as it relates sensor scan rate,.  If the binning was done in hardware, part of the sensor architecture,  you could impact the scan rate and reduce rolling shutter.  

Thank you for your efforts, we could all use a little entertainment these days, hopefully if you are like me, I find entertaining easier when I like my company!

cheers 

[jonoslack]

2 minutes ago, eab said:

@jono, right, I get it now.  

I was curious about the binning as it relates sensor scan rate,.  If the binning was done in hardware, part of the sensor architecture,  you could impact the scan rate and reduce rolling shutter.  

Thank you for your efforts, we could all use a little entertainment these days, hopefully if you are like me, I find entertaining easier when I like my company!

cheers 

Well, I like the company around here, and I very much appreciate the general positive response. It's a scary place to put up a 6000 word article! There are so many ways of being shot down in flames! 

[charlesphoto99]

You know, I've shot several hundred thousand photos using digital M cameras always using AWB and have never really given it a second thought, other than a few extreme corrections here and there, otherwise mostly minor ones or none at all. I think it's a fairly robust system at this point, but of course as in all things, YMMV. 

[jonoslack]

2 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

You know, I've shot several hundred thousand photos using digital M cameras always using AWB and have never really given it a second thought, other than a few extreme corrections here and there, otherwise mostly minor ones or none at all. I think it's a fairly robust system at this point, but of course as in all things, YMMV. 

Most people have done that . . . . . but I still maintain that it makes it much more difficult to evaluate a set of images, especially in bright contrasty conditions. Shooting with a fixed WB means that you have consistent colour over a whole shoot - you might want to change it later of course - but consider - it's a sunny day, you are in a shady lane, the colour temperature in the shade is 3k different from in the sunshine (more perhaps) every time you take a picture the WB will be different because there isn't a 'correct' answer, But the light hasn't changed and nor has the colour.

Let's face it, you don't allow your camera to decide what aperture you want - why let an impossibly challenged system decide what White Balance you want?

Best

[Jeff S]

One can also pick a specific, constant temperature setting, rather than letting Leica define ‘sunny’ for all locations.  And another  one (e.g., 3000k) for indoor setting.  Then leave the rest to PP.

Jeff

[gotium]

Would love to hear more on what you think of using the EVF on the M11 - namely if it makes it practical to focus off-axis with fast lenses and/or with human subjects. I've not had success with the EVF on the M10 cameras (even those with a touch screen, too slow and too hard to see) - this would be probably the ONE thing that would make me look at an M11. 

[Stevejack]

11 minutes ago, gotium said:

Would love to hear more on what you think of using the EVF on the M11 - namely if it makes it practical to focus off-axis with fast lenses and/or with human subjects. I've not had success with the EVF on the M10 cameras (even those with a touch screen, too slow and too hard to see) - this would be probably the ONE thing that would make me look at an M11. 

To add to this - can touch focusing now be disabled? I always found my nose would shift the focus point on the LCD screen (touching the screen before it switched over to EVF) so when I then went to zoom in for critical focus, it would zoom into the bottom corner 🤦‍♂️

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I have never once been concerned about the start up speed of an M camera. I have become so accustomed to switching the camera on as I reach for it that by the time it reaches my eye it's ready to shoot. And startup for my M10R and M10M is less than a second. The camera is turned off as I lower it to my side. I don't even think about it anymore. It's also the reason I dislike the position of the on switch on the SL cameras so much. Starting a SL2 is vastly slower to start up than an M because of where the switch is.

My M11 order is in. Should have it in a week or so. I'm loking forward to the improvements in live view shooting over my M10R and M10M, which I intend to keep. I still like the *snick* of the M10M/R shutter and I have a feeling the M11 will be as much used as a live view camera as a rangefinder. For me the improved EVF experience and the variable DNG sizes (first used by Canon, and still used by them, and not Nikon as reported earlier) will enlarge the shooting envelope for me. I don't often need vast speeds. My SL2 is more than fast enough for any work I do. I do see my Q2 getting less use though.

If the improvements in vignetting are real it'll be interesting to see how my MATE performs on the M11. I like it on the M10M but not at all on the M10R.

Gordon

[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, gotium said:

Would love to hear more on what you think of using the EVF on the M11 - namely if it makes it practical to focus off-axis with fast lenses and/or with human subjects. I've not had success with the EVF on the M10 cameras (even those with a touch screen, too slow and too hard to see) - this would be probably the ONE thing that would make me look at an M11. 

I'm not sure it's generically any more practical than the 10-R. I shoot in EVF extended and use the 4 way if I need to move the focus point. What is a noticeable improvement, particularly at 75mm and above is the EVF IS. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[antialiasing]

@jonoslack don't know how much time you spent on writing this excellent article, but I have spent hours so far reading it and checking out each image. I read it on your own web site where each photo has shooting data under it. I noticed that you use a wide variety of aperture values, and I'm curious -- how do you choose what aperture to use for a picture? That is something I struggle with. Do you do it by pre-visualizing the kind of background blur you require and knowing the amount of blur at various aperture/distance combinations?

Thank you for such enjoyable writing!

Harry