Survey: Are you planning to buy the new Leica M11?

[peterinkingston]

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4 minutes ago, Dr Cron said:

My answer: In short, possibly…

The much longer version...(!)

I have similar concerns to others, viz. street and landscape usage.  I won't print super large, but enjoy fine details that can be achieved with good printing techniques - rivalling my other (much) larger-format film cameras and my Nikon D800E.

I currently have two film Leicas, which are fantastic, but tend to be used for 'projects' rather than for taking with me all the time; the Nikon, with its 36mpx, was/is extraordinary, but I don't use it much now apart from summer macro and for film scanning (it’s not exactly an everyday walk-about or have-with-you camera).  I also want a camera that can shoot colour beyond ISO 1000 and use both my current Leica lenses.

I’m adding some further (edited) comments which I’ve also bunged into the chat on Matt Bentley-Walls’ considered YouTube video on this camera (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQUoHefA5V0&t=1s😞

Having grown rapidly to love the Leica system so much, and thus with an eagerness (when funds allow...!) to add a digital to the roster for versatility (a camera to actually keep on my person most of the time, inc. in low light, rather than for more special outings or photo-walks or projects), I too have absorbed the M11 hype.

 

I’m noting early-adopters who don’t seem to understand either flat files or critical sharpness, which is a bit frustrating.  The latter point seems especially pertinent to me: why have a system so renowned for the quality of its lenses and then need to adjust your shutter speed up to accommodate them (4x or even 5x focal  to make sure your pics are properly sharp???), with a camera that simply allows you to go up a stop or two of ISO, thus making the dynamic range advantage rather moot?   There may indeed be some M10 bargains (relatively speaking...!) to be found. The jury's still out, we'll see.

 

I’m not sold on the weaker aspects of the external re-design - I can live with the extra button on the top plate, given that this is on the M10D anyway,  but the line across from under the viewfinder window not going straight across as on previous models (the front top-plate has a kink now, seemingly to emphasise the size of the viewfinder from the front: just to remind you this is a rangefinder??)  mildly annoys me.  I don’t think I care about the lack of the base-plate, but the base design seems a bit lacking in design aesthetics (cf. the new box = visoflex) and even functionality (the tripod socket isn't really one at all, since you can't really use QR plates, but rather a plug for the new grip, extra £££ - a bit cynical).

 

I do very much like the idea of the internal storage: using a card just to download files onto at the end of a month, for instance, a bit like waiting to send your films off to get developed or saving them for a session at home, a good way of replicating that delayed gratification/objectivity that comes with film, and finding the good stuff and becoming a better photographer with proper discipline. 

But overall, this seems verily a smorgasbord camera: something for everyone - rather lacking the confidence to give photographers only what they actually need because Leica trusts its users to be any good.  I'm assuming they'll not be bothering with a M11D version... Das wesentliche? wirklich?, I ask cynically...(!)

 

Of course, I say all of this knowing that street photographers like e.g. Matt Stuart seem to recommend shooting at 1/1000s for everything anyway. I tend to agree with all the thoughtful views I've read so far that the M11 is a camera that is *not quite* an entirely fully realised prospect - and agree with those who worry slightly what a fully realised one would be. I'm sure they understand that people shoot M cameras because they want ultimate simplicity, liberation by constraints. Who knows!  

All of these frustrations notwithstanding, this may still be my first digital Leica.  I like that I should be able to use my 50 DR Summicron properly on it (a chance I’m not entirely willing to risk on an M10), and the internal storage ought to be great; the highlights control is superb (but arguably shouldn't have been an issue on the original M10 anyway).  Other than the resolution (I don’t really see the point of buying a digital camera in 2022 with a lower resolution than the D800E I’ve had for 9 years already), I don’t really care for other new bells and whistles.

Agreed, I have specific needs, two of which are 'lower' light photography and older age=camera shake.

Hey, maybe there should be a new formula Shutter speed=1/(F+Age)x3

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[Dr Cron]

34 minutes ago, peterinkingston said:

Agreed, I have specific needs, two of which are 'lower' light photography and older age=camera shake.

Hey, maybe there should be a new formula Shutter speed=1/(F+Age)x3

Lol!  Tbh, a higher unassisted Mpx sensor does require greater shot discipline/better technique (this was discussed all over by Nikon users 10 years ago with the huge jump up with the D800, from 12 to 36mpx).  Higher ISO can fix it, but why should it?  Nevertheless, I would have thought that there should be some usable shutter-speed advantage between the H and L resolution settings.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Dr Cron

[Photoworks]

15 minutes ago, peterinkingston said:

Hey, maybe there should be a new formula Shutter speed=1/(F+Age)x3

If age is an issue that you have trouble holding a full glass of water, then it is 1/4000 set and forget it. at this point my eyes would not be as sharp anymore, and won't be able to see the difference .

joking aside I have not found shutter shake to be a problem. I am using the same technique as shooting M10-P or R. 
The M11 is great, and if you shake too much you need to go up in shutter speeds. But that seams more a individual issue than a sensor/camera issue.

 

https://www.instagram.com/kroke/

[peterinkingston]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

If age is an issue that you have trouble holding a full glass of water, then it is 1/4000 set and forget it. at this point my eyes would not be as sharp anymore, and won't be able to see the difference .

joking aside I have not found shutter shake to be a problem. I am using the same technique as shooting M10-P or R. 
The M11 is great, and if you shake too much you need to go up in shutter speeds. But that seams more a individual issue than a sensor/camera issue.

 

https://www.instagram.com/kroke/

Thanks for your reply,

Mine's horribly long and not directed at you so please do not take offence.  It's more of a plea to Leica. So....

At 1/4000 in a low lit bar or on the street.  If i need f4 or 2 the depth of field it would exclude a whole range of styles of photgraphy.

To Leica,

I completely believe this a great camera and if faults are found you will do your bit.

But surely, 

Famous photos of people holding a Leica; the Queen,  Lenny Kravitz and David Suchet etc, and everyone else...  How many of these people would be able to hold an M11 and get the shot they want?

Let's face it, the demographic is going be 'mature' with more disposable income (Apart from Bitcoin and Instagram millionaires looking to show off and lets face it we dont want those types)

The design of the M11 should fulfill the majority of the dreams of consumers that want this type of camera. Given that most pros use a Nikon or Canon for their day jobs and own a Leica,  I include them as consumers in this discussion. I haven't seen professional review where the person does not end by saying something like, 'You really have to perfect your technique'. These are pros. What about the rest of us mortals? The 99.999% who are not pros, just enthusiastic amateurs.

You should have given the test cameras last year to non professionals and used their feedback. It would, I'm sure, be a different sensor. 

Perhaps you should have announced 2 new cameras, the second with a 30 to 36Mp sensor or whatever is available with the right qualities. Enough of an upgrade but too much to test the photographer.

I am 100% behind you Leica, i just feel like you missed a trick were driven by the desire to be bleeding edge. Well, It may cut you and you may bleed.

So perhaps, be quick and release a M11-S (shake reduced) for consumers or do some magic to emulate high quality shake reduction.

This is my first and last Leica digital. I (really x 7,500) times £ want this to be a good experience.

Its a lot of money and to miss quote, 'with big ticket prices, come big responsibilities' and this includes giving the customer what they want, not what they can put on shelf until they sell it.

Everyone, I hope you get that shot.

[SrMi]

38 minutes ago, peterinkingston said:

Thanks for your reply,

Mine's horribly long and not directed at you so please do not take offence.  It's more of a plea to Leica. So....

At 1/4000 in a low lit bar or on the street.  If i need f4 or 2 the depth of field it would exclude a whole range of styles of photgraphy.

To Leica,

I completely believe this a great camera and if faults are found you will do your bit.

But surely, 

Famous photos of people holding a Leica; the Queen,  Lenny Kravitz and David Suchet etc, and everyone else...  How many of these people would be able to hold an M11 and get the shot they want?

Let's face it, the demographic is going be 'mature' with more disposable income (Apart from Bitcoin and Instagram millionaires looking to show off and lets face it we dont want those types)

The design of the M11 should fulfill the majority of the dreams of consumers that want this type of camera. Given that most pros use a Nikon or Canon for their day jobs and own a Leica,  I include them as consumers in this discussion. I haven't seen professional review where the person does not end by saying something like, 'You really have to perfect your technique'. These are pros. What about the rest of us mortals? The 99.999% who are not pros, just enthusiastic amateurs.

You should have given the test cameras last year to non professionals and used their feedback. It would, I'm sure, be a different sensor. 

Perhaps you should have announced 2 new cameras, the second with a 30 to 36Mp sensor or whatever is available with the right qualities. Enough of an upgrade but too much to test the photographer.

I am 100% behind you Leica, i just feel like you missed a trick were driven by the desire to be bleeding edge. Well, It may cut you and you may bleed.

So perhaps, be quick and release a M11-S (shake reduced) for consumers or do some magic to emulate high quality shake reduction.

This is my first and last Leica digital. I (really x 7,500) times £ want this to be a good experience.

Its a lot of money and to miss quote, 'with big ticket prices, come big responsibilities' and this includes giving the customer what they want, not what they can put on shelf until they sell it.

Everyone, I hope you get that shot.

If Ralph Gibson (83) can shoot M11 handheld, I assume that David Suchet (75) could as well.

If you can shoot a 24MP camera handheld, you should not have any problems shooting at 60MP (to be safe, you can increase the shutter speed by 60%).

Most of M11 owners are non-professionals, and they all seem to be happy with the sensor.

[Photoworks]

41 minutes ago, peterinkingston said:

Thanks for your reply,

Mine's horribly long and not directed at you so please do not take offence.  It's more of a plea to Leica. So....

At 1/4000 in a low lit bar or on the street.  If i need f4 or 2 the depth of field it would exclude a whole range of styles of photgraphy.

To Leica,

I completely believe this a great camera and if faults are found you will do your bit.

But surely, 

Famous photos of people holding a Leica; the Queen,  Lenny Kravitz and David Suchet etc, and everyone else...  How many of these people would be able to hold an M11 and get the shot they want?

Let's face it, the demographic is going be 'mature' with more disposable income (Apart from Bitcoin and Instagram millionaires looking to show off and lets face it we dont want those types)

The design of the M11 should fulfill the majority of the dreams of consumers that want this type of camera. Given that most pros use a Nikon or Canon for their day jobs and own a Leica,  I include them as consumers in this discussion. I haven't seen professional review where the person does not end by saying something like, 'You really have to perfect your technique'. These are pros. What about the rest of us mortals? The 99.999% who are not pros, just enthusiastic amateurs.

You should have given the test cameras last year to non professionals and used their feedback. It would, I'm sure, be a different sensor. 

Perhaps you should have announced 2 new cameras,

or whatever is available with the right qualities. Enough of an upgrade but too much to test the photographer.

I am 100% behind you Leica, i just feel like you missed a trick were driven by the desire to be bleeding edge. Well, It may cut you and you may bleed.

So perhaps, be quick and release a M11-S (shake reduced) for consumers or do some magic to emulate high quality shake reduction.

This is my first and last Leica digital. I (really x 7,500) times £ want this to be a good experience.

Its a lot of money and to miss quote, 'with big ticket prices, come big responsibilities' and this includes giving the customer what they want, not what they can put on shelf until they sell it.

Everyone, I hope you get that shot.

so just to be clear! Do you have the M11 and are using it?

just asking because the handling is the same of any other digital M camera, and wanting a lower sensor in not going to change any camera shake.

44 minutes ago, peterinkingston said:

the second with a 30 to 36Mp sensor

Here you totally lost me, you have an M11 that does 3 format without loss of quality.
Plus there is a M10-R that is an excellent camera.

[peterinkingston]

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13 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

so just to be clear! Do you have the M11 and are using it?

just asking because the handling is the same of any other digital M camera, and wanting a lower sensor in not going to change any camera shake.

Here you totally lost me, you have an M11 that does 3 format without loss of quality.
Plus there is a M10-R that is an excellent camera.

Hi, Not yet I've been waiting ~1week and have an eta of 23/25th March (this year 😉) so a bit nervous but can't wait.

Sorry, I meant a physical 30Mp-36Mp sensor. I would hope the size of the physical photosites have enough width within the cell to allow slight movement.

Have you got an M11 and if so how slow and what was the widest you shot at? When taking a shot of a momentary subject that you weren't expecting <1s to prepare?

I used to be quite good at catching the moment: Look down guess and set the distance and fstop on the lens before reaching my eye. Which is what I hope to be able to do again. I know its different but would like to know what I am dealing with and when I will be able to use it.

Disclosure, I have an M10-r reserved (with a free spare battery). However the other features on the M11 make sense to me.

 

 

[peterinkingston]

39 minutes ago, SrMi said:

If Ralph Gibson (83) can shoot M11 handheld, I assume that David Suchet (75) could as well.

If you can shoot a 24MP camera handheld, you should not have any problems shooting at 60MP (to be safe, you can increase the shutter speed by 60%).

Most of M11 owners are non-professionals, and they all seem to be happy with the sensor.

Thanks, I needed that! 

I feel a bit better now

[peterinkingston]

2 minutes ago, peterinkingston said:

Thanks, I needed that! 

I feel a bit better now

Have you read David Suchet's book? It's a lovely read Takes a proud place on my shelf.

Edited February 13, 2022 by peterinkingston

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, peterinkingston said:

Have you read David Suchet's book? It's a lovely read Takes a proud place on my shelf.

No, I have not read it yet. I assume you are talking about "Behind the Lens: My Life"? Thank you for the recommendation.

[adan]

3 hours ago, peterinkingston said:

Thanks for your reply,

Mine's horribly long and not directed at you so please do not take offence.  It's more of a plea to Leica. So....

Just as a reminder of the math of all this:

60 Mpixels is only a 22% increase in linear resolution over 40 Mpixels. I.E. if you take 12 pictures with the M10-R and the M11, only 2 of the M11 pictures (statistically) will show a slight blur, if the M10-R shows no blurs at all. (and that's worst case - shooting right on the edge).

If that seems intuitively wrong, recall that pixels cover area - shake-blur and resolution covers lines.  And movement-blur has to appear on at least two pixels to show as a blur. One has to compare the square-root of the pixel counts - ratio 6.32 to 7.74 = 1.225

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Compared to 36 Mpixels, the ratio will be about 1 to 1.3 (30% more chance of 60-Mpixel blur)

To consistently and commonly show more blur compared to 36 Mpixels would require a 144 mpixel sensor (36 x 4).

60 Mpixels is just not that much larger or more detailed than 40 or 36 Mpixels in the first place.

One of the little tragedies of digital photography - to get "twice as sharp" or show "twice as much blur" requires "four times the pixels" - and file size. The M11 doesn't qualify.

.............

And, of course, the M11 offers the option of 36 (or 18) Mpixel images anyway - which will downsize the effective size of blurs (in a given overall viewing size) just as much as it downsizes all of the resolution.

3 hours ago, peterinkingston said:

Perhaps you should have announced 2 new cameras, the second with a 30 to 36Mp sensor or whatever is available with the right qualities.

So in fact the M11 gives you EXACTLY your wish - three (not two or one) new cameras. Of selectable megapixel count. In one unit.

[M11 for me]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb HansiMustermann:

No. Shaking the camera means shaking the camera. No difference between 12, 36 or 60 MP. 

unclear what you want to say. Probably wrong. Why do you mention 12MP? M11 has a minimum of 18.

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, adan said:

Just as a reminder of the math of all this:

60 Mpixels is only a 22% increase in linear resolution over 40 Mpixels. I.E. if you take 12 pictures with the M10-R and the M11, only 2 of the M11 pictures (statistically) will show a slight blur, if the M10-R shows no blurs at all. (and that's worst case - shooting right on the edge).

If that seems intuitively wrong, recall that pixels cover area - shake-blur and resolution covers lines.  And movement-blur has to appear on at least two pixels to show as a blur. One has to compare the square-root of the pixel counts - ratio 6.32 to 7.74 = 1.225

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Compared to 36 Mpixels, the ratio will be about 1 to 1.3 (30% more chance of 60-Mpixel blur)

To consistently and commonly show more blur compared to 36 Mpixels would require a 144 mpixel sensor (36 x 4).

60 Mpixels is just not that much larger or more detailed than 40 or 36 Mpixels in the first place.

One of the little tragedies of digital photography - to get "twice as sharp" or show "twice as much blur" requires "four times the pixels" - and file size. The M11 doesn't qualify.

.............

And, of course, the M11 offers the option of 36 (or 18) Mpixel images anyway - which will downsize the effective size of blurs (in a given overall viewing size) just as much as it downsizes all of the resolution.

So in fact the M11 gives you EXACTLY your wish - three (not two or one) new cameras. Of selectable megapixel count. In one unit.

All good in theory, Andy.

The reality, however, is that the move from 18MP on the M9 series cameras to the 36MP Nikon D800E revealed a serious problem with motion blur - it quickly became apparent that shutter slap was a significant part of the problem.  I sold my D800E after I found that I could not get predictably sharp images (sharper than my Monochrom) at certain shutter speeds, even on a tripod.  Even Nikon themselves acknowledged the problem.

My understanding is that Leica hasn't had this problem due to the mass of the camera, its shutter design and how it has avoided shutter bounce.  But for many other cameras, I think it is a bit of a stretch to say that the problem has never existed because we haven't hit the limit of 144 MP.  Clearly, the move from 24 MP up has triggered the problem.  Equally clearly, most manufacturers have found a solution - Leica in particular with its TL2, CL, M10-M, M10-R and now M11.

But, as for poor technique, I'm sure many photographers will either need to adjust their approach to shutter selection or improve their technique.

Edited February 13, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[John Miranda]

Complaints over 'too high a resolution' have been occurring for years now, frequently from those that have never tried the newest released camera: I recall this resolution debate being raised when Nikon introduced the D3X (24MP) over the prior Nikon D2X (12MP).  And again with the D800, and D850. 

So if the Leica M11 can shoot 60MP, and you don't shake, great, you may get the full benefit of a 60MP image enabling more cropping or larger prints, and if by chance you aren't steady with the camera during that image capture, then downsample the image to 30MP or whatever, and you get a similar result as if you had a 30MP camera in the first place.  Worst case, you get the same result as a lower res sensor, best case, you get a better result, all with improved ISO performance.  What is not to like?  Glad to see Leica continue to advance their M series.

I have the M10-R so unclear on upgrading timing as my Leica is fairly current, but if I were buying a new Leica digital today, it is a no brainer, M11 is the best one.

[harmen]

Shake doesn't suddenly become visible at a specific number of pixels per sensor.  It is always there.  It's just that a higher MP sensor shows the shake with more precision when zooming in to 100%.  See for a simple simulation here.  The high MP sensor has 4x the number of pixels, which means 2x more up/down and 2x more left/right.  If I take a photo of the edge of a wall, and shake during the recording, so the wall moves vis-a-vis the sensor, then the higher MP sensor captures it in more detail.

Had the shake been less, it would still show.  That's the second shake scenario below.  Even if I had only moved by half a (low resolution) pixel, the lower MP sensor would have recorded 25%; not 0, as the wall starts to move into view.  Hence, the shake is always being recorded.  It's just less pronounced when a pixel captures a bigger area.

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Edited February 14, 2022 by harmen

[ianforber]

18 hours ago, peterinkingston said:

Hi, Not yet I've been waiting ~1week and have an eta of 23/25th March (this year 😉) so a bit nervous but can't wait.

Sorry, I meant a physical 30Mp-36Mp sensor. I would hope the size of the physical photosites have enough width within the cell to allow slight movement.

Have you got an M11 and if so how slow and what was the widest you shot at? When taking a shot of a momentary subject that you weren't expecting <1s to prepare?

I used to be quite good at catching the moment: Look down guess and set the distance and fstop on the lens before reaching my eye. Which is what I hope to be able to do again. I know its different but would like to know what I am dealing with and when I will be able to use it.

Disclosure, I have an M10-r reserved (with a free spare battery). However the other features on the M11 make sense to me.

 

 

Hi, 

We seem to be in a similar position - in London (near Kingston?), in our 50s and waiting for an M11 as a first digital rangefinder (and in my case a first Leica M). I ordered mine on 05 Feb and I’m promised it at the end of this month. We’ll see…

I confess not to be too bothered about reports of camera shake but that’s in part because my style of photography doesn’t often involve low light situations. I’m just looking forward to getting my hands on the camera and seeing what it can do! Hope yours comes soon.

Ian

[peterinkingston]

19 hours ago, adan said:

Just as a reminder of the math of all this:

60 Mpixels is only a 22% increase in linear resolution over 40 Mpixels. I.E. if you take 12 pictures with the M10-R and the M11, only 2 of the M11 pictures (statistically) will show a slight blur, if the M10-R shows no blurs at all. (and that's worst case - shooting right on the edge).

If that seems intuitively wrong, recall that pixels cover area - shake-blur and resolution covers lines.  And movement-blur has to appear on at least two pixels to show as a blur. One has to compare the square-root of the pixel counts - ratio 6.32 to 7.74 = 1.225

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Compared to 36 Mpixels, the ratio will be about 1 to 1.3 (30% more chance of 60-Mpixel blur)

To consistently and commonly show more blur compared to 36 Mpixels would require a 144 mpixel sensor (36 x 4).

60 Mpixels is just not that much larger or more detailed than 40 or 36 Mpixels in the first place.

One of the little tragedies of digital photography - to get "twice as sharp" or show "twice as much blur" requires "four times the pixels" - and file size. The M11 doesn't qualify.

.............

And, of course, the M11 offers the option of 36 (or 18) Mpixel images anyway - which will downsize the effective size of blurs (in a given overall viewing size) just as much as it downsizes all of the resolution.

So in fact the M11 gives you EXACTLY your wish - three (not two or one) new cameras. Of selectable megapixel count. In one unit.

Wow,

Clear and understandible.

Thank you.

My M11 remains on order and I can't wait for it arrive.

 

[peterinkingston]

ps I am also buying an M3 DS 1956, for my father. He came to this country in 1956. He bought an M3 1956 in about 64 with a couple of lenses.It cost him nearly one year salary. He loved that camera. Unfortunately , the cloth sutter curtain had a burn hole from the sun and he couldn't afford to repair it. he is 87 years old and he still develops my films for me.

I don't care what the photos look like it makes me proud of him. He once bought a durst and some collapsible russion reporters emlarger, maybe 25 years ago. They didn't have lenses, so he bought several lenses in junk shops and fashioned a new ones that fit. They work wonderfully.

He worked in the dark (Hahahah). Mother never new how much he spent on these things.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[peterinkingston]

3 hours ago, ianforber said:

Hi, 

We seem to be in a similar position - in London (near Kingston?), in our 50s and waiting for an M11 as a first digital rangefinder (and in my case a first Leica M). I ordered mine on 05 Feb and I’m promised it at the end of this month. We’ll see…

I confess not to be too bothered about reports of camera shake but that’s in part because my style of photography doesn’t often involve low light situations. I’m just looking forward to getting my hands on the camera and seeing what it can do! Hope yours comes soon.

Ian

Hmm, Brilliant yes the north river roads, in Kingston. That's so cool. 

Let's meet when we see something   Mine is silver. I will be in the corner somehere wearing it :))

  

[johntobias]

In the words of David Byrne...'How did I get here?'   well, I'll always use film and love it but my digital progression has been interesting...started with the canikoly plastic fantastics but quickly got an M8 over 10 yrs ago, from there...eventually went M240, then M10 and as I love my 35 'cron...wanted to crop a bit more so traded the M10 for an SL2.....while it was a fabulous camera and I loved the menu system, I just hated its heft and evf.....so It has a new home and My M11 (silver) arrives today.....Thanks Leica of Manchester...Great guys and put up with all my chopping and changing shenanigans ! ..... M11 + summicron 35 asph....all the camera I need (just now) 🙂