My message to Leica AG in regards to CL!

[NZDavid]

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1 hour ago, ramarren said:

...I don't need, never expect, a manufacturer of cameras and other such "light hardware" to cozen to me what their plans for the future are ...

G

"Cozen" means "trick or deceive" but I don't see its relevance in this context, so you got me there. Not sure where the deception comes in. 

I agree with John's point a page or so back that the demise of many different models has been predicted prematurely on this forum -- but the reports have often been exaggerated! Yes of course,  old models may go on working happily for decades but that's not really the point, the question is: Where to now?

So, just in case Leica really does use views expressed on this forum to inform its future model plans, then my message is this: Most users want simplicity of use allied with high technical quality. Even more so than a raft of additional features. 

So, what does that mean? A relatively compact body with a choice of compact top-notch lenses from WA to tele. Plus, I'd say simple analog controls, fast AF, and a good built-in EVF. It's not for nothing that the Q series has done so well.

The question then comes up: What format? Are there too many formats already? 

Like it or not, the likelihood of future sales will play a big role in determining Leica's future model line-up.

[ramarren]

19 hours ago, NZDavid said:

"Cozen" means "trick or deceive" but I don't see its relevance in this context, so you got me there. Not sure where the deception comes in. 

I agree with John's point a page or so back that the demise of many different models has been predicted prematurely on this forum -- but the reports have often been exaggerated! Yes of course,  old models may go on working happily for decades but that's not really the point, the question is: Where to now?

So, just in case Leica really does use views expressed on this forum to inform its future model plans, then my message is this: Most users want simplicity of use allied with high technical quality. Even more so than a raft of additional features. 

So, what does that mean? A relatively compact body with a choice of compact top-notch lenses from WA to tele. Plus, I'd say simple analog controls, fast AF, and a good built-in EVF. It's not for nothing that the Q series has done so well.

The question then comes up: What format? Are there too many formats already? 

Like it or not, the likelihood of future sales will play a big role in determining Leica's future model line-up.

Oops, my bad ... I meant 'to share a confidence with me' and must have looked away when autocorrect jiggered around with "confidence" ... LOL

Personally, I really don't care much what format a camera's sensor is as long as the camera achieves what I'm after. Which is large dynamic range, big enough so that I have some options in DoF control, adequate pixel resolution, etc. Something a bit more square in proportions than either FF35 or APS-C would be more flexible, far as I'm concerned, but it's really not that important.

*Simplicity of use allied with high technical quality* is a good summation. The M, the SL, the CL all achieve it. Another thing that I like but isn't in any manufacturers' best interest is that I already have a lot of very nice lenses that work on both APS-C and FF35 formats well, and mostly pretty well even on 33x44 mm MFD, certainly on 33x33 cropped MFD. Building a camera that can continue to use the same lenses piques my interest much more than the notion of having to outfit with a completely new set of lenses, and saves me a boatload of money. 

I don't know why the tautology expressed in your final sentence was worth making an effort to state...

G

[NZDavid]

Ah, damn auto spell correct, I find the same thing!

Agree entirely that the results and ease of use are important -- plus versatility, including lenses.

I just meant that Leica will base its decisions on likely sales rather than the odd whims of some LUF members, but yeah, that's kinda obvious! It will be interesting to see if any exciting new models come to light on November 11.

 

[IkarusJohn]

I agree, David - simplicity of use combined with high technical quality is a good summary.  Not leading edge; not cluttered, the best use of prevailing technology adapted to Leica’s existing lenses seems to be an effective point of difference for Leica.

The M cameras (except the M(240)) have been elegant simplicity personified.  Even the SL, which strayed into what might be considered mainstream mirrorless, pulled off a remarkable trick of simplifying the user interface.

[Guest BlackBarn]

On 10/25/2021 at 11:44 AM, ramarren said:

I recall someone fairly famous speaker at a conference once upon a time discussing customer support: "Just because some company's products are expensive doesn't necessarily mean that buying one of them entitles you to anything more than the product you paid for along with the service and support that purchase entitles you to." New product information prior to release is considered very high value, sensitive information that should be handed out only as needed to essential partners

Yes can see that if I were purchasing a house ……however Leica is also in the game of touting for customer loyalty….return business ….where customer service in all its forms, is relevant and financially necessary in most business models I know.

As to  ‘New product is considered very high value sensitive information’.  I can see the relevance at a certain point, say in the testing phase of the final product when the yet to be finalized new cameras capability could be misinterpreted but that doesn’t mean they have to say nothing. I also doubt  if any serious competitor did not already have a strong handle on Leica’s intentions way before beta production while the big players probably don’t have any interest in Leica’s market niche.

Leica success relies on repeat business and for some reason they simply don’t grasp the importance of offering more timely and relevant information to their  customers. A little bit of consideration would go a long way.

[ramarren]

I look forward to whatever Leica (and various other manufacturers) announce whenever it is they decide to announce it. Once they announce something, I determine whether I am interested to buy it. I don't sit around on tenterhooks waiting to buy something and begging Leica to announce something new so I know what to buy. 

This conversation has become noisome to me. We have all stated our strongly held opinions, there's little purpose to repeating them. You'll not convince me to change my opinion, and I doubt I'll convince you. You may carry on if you so desire, but I have more entertaining things with which to consume my time. Like, perhaps, do some photography with my Leica CL and other cameras.

G

[Phil1066]

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Noticed that Leica Australia is pushing the CL once again. This may be normal marketing activity or could be considered 'run out' but they aren't incentivising purchase yet (if ever they do) 🙂

[IkarusJohn]

20 hours ago, ramarren said:

I look forward to whatever Leica (and various other manufacturers) announce whenever it is they decide to announce it. Once they announce something, I determine whether I am interested to buy it. I don't sit around on tenterhooks waiting to buy something and begging Leica to announce something new so I know what to buy. 

This conversation has become noisome to me. We have all stated our strongly held opinions, there's little purpose to repeating them. You'll not convince me to change my opinion, and I doubt I'll convince you. You may carry on if you so desire, but I have more entertaining things with which to consume my time. Like, perhaps, do some photography with my Leica CL and other cameras.

G

Smelly?  Really?

I think this is a symptom of the internet.

Back in the film days, I was a committed Nikon FM/FE user.  I bought Nikon because I liked their cameras and their commitment to the F mount.  I started with an FE, then moved on to an FM and others.  Generally, I'd look in shops at what was available, and perhaps the odd photography magazine, and then buy what suited me.  I then went out and took photos.  Every now and then, I'd buy a new lens or sell one that didn't suit me (the Nikkor 100-300 zoom springs to mind).

Where's this going?  Well, I used what I had.  When it wore out or didn't do what I wanted anymore, I'd look to see what was available.  I didn't go hunting when the FE2 or FM2 were announced.  I came to those cameras when I needed a new camera, and was pleasantly surprised at whatever was improved.  Photography was what drove my purchases, and the cameras met the needs of photography.

In the internet age, we form these more informal communities like this one.  But for this forum, I wouldn't be logging into the Leica website everyday to see what is new.  I might look at the blog, and some other websites (Jono's for instance - not so much the speaking to the dead guy), but I wouldn't really look at what was new; and I certainly wouldn't give my current gear a second thought if it was still working as improvements to my gear have rarely improved my photographs.

As to the future of the TL/CL cameras, at this early stage I'd be amazed if Leica abandoned the APS-C format.  It has invested a lot in the lenses and cameras which presumably still needs to be recouped.  What they might do, short of an R-style abandonment, is move yet more manufacturing to Asia.  

The L mount is licensed, but no one else has used the mount for an APS-C camera to date.  Is that an indication that the format is not sufficiently far away from cell phone photography to have a market?  A huge number of people fire away with their cell phones.  If you want more/better, do you go for 135 format or medium format?  No idea.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Phil1066 said:

Noticed that Leica Australia is pushing the CL once again. This may be normal marketing activity or could be considered 'run out' but they aren't incentivising purchase yet (if ever they do) 🙂

Just curious, how did you notice that? I live in Australia and haven't noticed that. The CL does not even appear among the featured products in the Leica Australia online store.

[charlesphoto99]

Most electronic companies are tight lipped about releases. As they should be. Technologies change, release schedules change, bugs come up, the market changes, etc. A great audio company like Naim, imo the most analogous hifi company to Leica, don't drop a hint of what's next until they announce and it and one can pick it up or order in a week or two. Not announcing roadmaps and prototypes also builds lots of FOMO, obviously. 😆

[Simone_DF]

8 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

The L mount is licensed, but no one else has used the mount for an APS-C camera to date.  Is that an indication that the format is not sufficiently far away from cell phone photography to have a market?  A huge number of people fire away with their cell phones.  If you want more/better, do you go for 135 format or medium format?  No idea.

No one else = Panasonic and Sigma

Panasonic has its own m4/3 segment, they have no interest in a APS-C camera. 

Sigma has the FP, what would be the advantage of an APS-C camera over that full frame model? 

Sigma is also struggling with designing a full frame Foveon camera, their dev team is focused on that. 

But if you look outside of Leicaland, the APS-C market is alive and well: in the last 6 months Ricoh is launching the GRIIIx and Nikon has introduced the Zfc.  

[Phil1066]

9 hours ago, Studienkamera said:

Just curious, how did you notice that? I live in Australia and haven't noticed that. The CL does not even appear among the featured products in the Leica Australia online store.

Yeah I got an email from both Leica Australia and Leica NZ promoting the CL in the last two weeks 🙂

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited October 27, 2021 by Phil1066
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[LocalHero1953]

On 10/26/2021 at 3:27 AM, ramarren said:

I look forward to whatever Leica (and various other manufacturers) announce whenever it is they decide to announce it. Once they announce something, I determine whether I am interested to buy it. I don't sit around on tenterhooks waiting to buy something and begging Leica to announce something new so I know what to buy. 

This conversation has become noisome to me. We have all stated our strongly held opinions, there's little purpose to repeating them. You'll not convince me to change my opinion, and I doubt I'll convince you. You may carry on if you so desire, but I have more entertaining things with which to consume my time. Like, perhaps, do some photography with my Leica CL and other cameras.

G

Well, you have contributed a dozen or more posts to it in the last couple of weeks! Most of them along the lines that you're happy with what you have and you're not curious about future CL models. The solution to your gripe is fairly clear. I do the same when I have no interest in a thread.

[Louis]

20 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Well, you have contributed a dozen or more posts to it in the last couple of weeks! Most of them along the lines that you're happy with what you have and you're not curious about future CL models. The solution to your gripe is fairly clear. I do the same when I have no interest in a thread.

Hehehe,

Our friend Godfrey always loved to contradict anything!  

[V2cruise]

On 10/17/2021 at 5:54 AM, IkarusJohn said:

Why does the TL2 need a firmware update?  While I have no particular interest in a TL3, the fact that the camera works perfectly, and doesn’t need a firmware upgrade proves nothing.

1. Flash interface, i.e. shut off exposure compensation for use with flash and eliminate screen blackout, 2. Enable LCD to be used in conjunction with Visoflex EVF so that you can move the focus point with your eye on the EVF, 3. Full interface with Sigma and Panasonic L-mount lenses, 4. Add an additional user profile or two, and 5. Add more available options for the FN key.

I really like the ergonomics of the TL2 and also don't see a need for a new version but was annoyed enough with things that could easily be addressed through firmware updates that I visited the Leica Store and tried the CL. Although all the above issues have been addressed, I just didn't like the feel of it as much as the TL2. Unfortunately for my wallet, I also tried out the SL and wound up buying a used Typ601! The TL2 remains as the Typ601 is too big and heavy to carry around all the time.

[V2cruise]

On 10/17/2021 at 1:06 PM, FrozenInTime said:

Focus point lock would be appreciated 

 /\ /\ /\ /\ Add this to LCD interface while using EVF.

3 minutes ago, V2cruise said:

1. Flash interface, i.e. shut off exposure compensation for use with flash and eliminate screen blackout, 2. Enable LCD to be used in conjunction with Visoflex EVF so that you can move the focus point with your eye on the EVF, 3. Full interface with Sigma and Panasonic L-mount lenses, 4. Add an additional user profile or two, and 5. Add more available options for the FN key.

I really like the ergonomics of the TL2 and also don't see a need for a new version but was annoyed enough with things that could easily be addressed through firmware updates that I visited the Leica Store and tried the CL. Although all the above issues have been addressed, I just didn't like the feel of it as much as the TL2. Unfortunately for my wallet, I also tried out the SL and wound up buying a used Typ601! The TL2 remains as the Typ601 is too big and heavy to carry around all the time.

 

[Enrique Santa]

On 10/25/2021 at 12:44 AM, ramarren said:

Respect? Really?

The respect I want is when I have a problem with a piece of gear I bought from a company and the manufacturer and/or vendor is there to assist with solving the issue. I don't need, never expect, a manufacturer of cameras and other such "light hardware" to cozen to me what their plans for the future are beyond what they say to the entire world regardless of how much money I've paid for their products. That kind of respect isn't included in the purchase price. 

I might have other relationships with the manufacturer or vendor that do warrant that kind of "respect" ... They usually come about because I'm promoting the brand in some way or helping them develop or test something, and I have a line of communication with the marketing, sales, and/or engineering personnel who work there. From those sorts of relationships, i often will obtain advance information on company planning, but not from just being a happy customer and buying their gear.

I recall someone fairly famous speaker at a conference once upon a time discussing customer support: "Just because some company's products are expensive doesn't necessarily mean that buying one of them entitles you to anything more than the product you paid for along with the service and support that purchase entitles you to." New product information prior to release is considered very high value, sensitive information that should be handed out only as needed to essential partners. 

G

Yes respect, emphaty, positive marketing, call it what you want . The absolute lack of "simphaty" between Leica with their costumer base makes a poweful reaction in them: no more confidence in Leica as a brand. Can you tell me why I'm going to buy any more Leica Tl lens??. No one. I will buy Voights, Zeiss,  or any other FF m mount brand or Pany and Sigma L mount and of course in some years my next cam will be probably Sigma, no Leica of course. So yes you are right the best way to treat a costumer is like trash. 

We are only waiting for any confirmation of the apsc Leica future...No any industrial secret my friend😁¡¡

Edited October 28, 2021 by Enrique Santa

[serhan]

Hopefully it is not true:

https://leicarumors.com/2021/10/31/whats-next-for-leica-11.aspx/

John Görten:

"There will be definitively no new CL2! Leica does not see any future in APSc. These were the words from Stefan Daniel a few weeks ago in Wetzlar at a talk he gave."

[Kim Dahl]

3 hours ago, serhan said:

Hopefully it is not true:

https://leicarumors.com/2021/10/31/whats-next-for-leica-11.aspx/

John Görten:

"There will be definitively no new CL2! Leica does not see any future in APSc. These were the words from Stefan Daniel a few weeks ago in Wetzlar at a talk he gave."

If Stefan Daniel says there will NOT be a CL2.  
 

Is there anyone here in this forum who knows or has a connection to Stefan where he could officially say that there will not be a CL2 and what has Leica thought of us then bought into the system ?☺️

For example a “SL (Ala Q) FF with replaceable L Mount” with enough MB so Apsc lenses works ok. 
If he said that in a meeting, is that an official secret?

 I'm sure Leica has thought about it 📷👍🏻

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Le Chef]

7 hours ago, serhan said:

Hopefully it is not true:

https://leicarumors.com/2021/10/31/whats-next-for-leica-11.aspx/

John Görten:

"There will be definitively no new CL2! Leica does not see any future in APSc. These were the words from Stefan Daniel a few weeks ago in Wetzlar at a talk he gave."

I would be very surprised if this was true. Who was in the room when he allegedly said it? Can they confirm this? Who was the talk with and what was it for: customers, dealers of Leica staff?

As I’ve said elsewhere you don’t just announce things like this without other business issues being resolved. 

What happens to the TL lens line? Has the factory production line been closed down? Does Sigma take over those lenses? What happens to CL production? Have the suppliers been told? Have the dealers been told?

Presumably someone in the room would have asked these questions and gotten answers.