luigi bertolotti Posted October 12, 2021 Share #41 Posted October 12, 2021 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Official US Catalog year 1964 : note what they say about black lenses...and the Summilux 35 is even not quoted... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! (as a collateral : would be fine today to buy a black M3 for 324 $... 😁) Then what in '64 was a "limited but definitive demand" evolved, and US catalog of 1968 lists the Lux 35 in black only... Edited October 12, 2021 by luigi bertolotti 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! (as a collateral : would be fine today to buy a black M3 for 324 $... 😁) Then what in '64 was a "limited but definitive demand" evolved, and US catalog of 1968 lists the Lux 35 in black only... ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/325203-help-to-authenticate-a-35-summilux-v1/?do=findComment&comment=4291369'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 12, 2021 Posted October 12, 2021 Hi luigi bertolotti, Take a look here Help to authenticate a 35 Summilux V1. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
M9reno Posted October 13, 2021 Share #42 Posted October 13, 2021 13 hours ago, Steven said: So now, to the second part of the process. Here is the trade deal I am offered to acquire this lens: I exchange my Silver Noctilux 50 f1.2 Reissue against the Black steel Rim + a 35AA + a Black 50 Noctilux 1.2 Good deal ? How does that translate in money value terms? I would not let go a Silver Noctilux reissue if I were you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 13, 2021 Share #43 Posted October 13, 2021 2 hours ago, M9reno said: How does that translate in money value terms? I would not let go a Silver Noctilux reissue if I were you. I think it's an unuseful discussion... 😎 such particular bids are so "face to face" and "one shot" that any consideration on money, values, their future trend and so on, is pointless... Two persons are discussing a special bid... maybe they will reach an agreement and close the deal... which means that each of them has made a "good" deal in that moment. (Lot of years ago, on a such kind of bid, on much more common M lenses, at the end in the exchange I gained from the dealer also a fine R4 body with vague meter... they were still times of film SLRs, and I hadn't one... but that R4 is still in my drawer, lensless (*), never loaded with a film... 🙄) (*) Have an Apotelyt 180 with M adapter, though... I'd have just to decide to buy a film, make some shots, process, print... well... have the feel that won't do... 😒 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 13, 2021 Author Share #44 Posted October 13, 2021 3 hours ago, M9reno said: How does that translate in money value terms? I would not let go a Silver Noctilux reissue if I were you. If i understand your question, it values my Silver Nocti at around 70K. Probably too low compared to its real market value. But in my eyes, i get three lenses in exchange of one, and i dont lose the lens i lose, since i get it in another color. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted October 13, 2021 Share #45 Posted October 13, 2021 vor 16 Stunden schrieb jankap: ... that it could be made in a slum somewhere in Bavaria or elsewhere. Wait a minute, there are no slums in Bavaria, at least none I would know. vor 17 Stunden schrieb Steven: I exchange my Silver Noctilux 50 f1.2 Reissue against the Black steel Rim + a 35AA + a Black 50 Noctilux 1.2 Good deal ? To the best of my knowledge, the silver Noctilux reissue is very rare, so I would not part with that lens. But only you can make the decision for yourself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 13, 2021 Author Share #46 Posted October 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, wizard said: the silver Noctilux reissue is very rare There are 100 of them. Seems to be less than that for the Black Steel Rim. I have read there are less than 60 real ones. The advantage of the Silver Noctilux, though, is that it's numbered and certified by Leica. Can't be faked. It's also very trendy. There is one for sale at the auction next month. Starting price is 12K, estimated at 26K. But I have a feeling the hammer price will get close to 80. Schouten currently sells his unopened copy for 99K, and F22 has an opened one for 75. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted October 13, 2021 Share #47 Posted October 13, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) 1 hour ago, Steven said: The advantage of the Silver Noctilux, though, is that it's numbered and certified by Leica. Can't be faked. It's also very trendy. Quite. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted October 13, 2021 Share #48 Posted October 13, 2021 2 hours ago, M9reno said: Quite. Economists call these ‘Veblen Goods’. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik van Straten Posted October 14, 2021 Share #49 Posted October 14, 2021 (edited) This is the oldest black one I could find in my archives. Now we have to find the differences. I see that the triangle index point is different. On yours it is all white. On the example I show it is black in a white frame, but that could be due to wear and tear. The biggest difference is the spelling of the word "Canada" on the focusing ring. On the old Summilux 35mm it is "Canada", but on yours it is CANADA. However, in my files "Canada" and "CANADA" both appear from time to time. So more research is needed I guess. The red dot may also be an indication. On the earliest lenses it is not seen, but later only from time to time, not always. Erik. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited October 14, 2021 by Erik van Straten Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/325203-help-to-authenticate-a-35-summilux-v1/?do=findComment&comment=4292521'>More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 14, 2021 Author Share #50 Posted October 14, 2021 Wow, incredible info! Thank you Erik. I remember you from RFF, and I remember you're a Steel Rim expert. There was a 10 year old thread in which people attacked you for saying that not all version render the same. And yet, you could not have been more right. I have tried about 14 different Summilux pre asph this year, and they all have their subtle differences in rendering. I'm particularly curious about different batches of the steel rim now. I have been able to try them all except for 216.... which is known as the transition batch (because 216 started as V1 and finished as V2 with infinity lock) . It seems to be the sharpest of them all, based on the V2 infinity lock I've tried and own. I might have found a V1 216xxxx this morning. Negotiating it now. Last piece of the puzzle for me. Back to the main topic, I've posted the photo of an authentic Black Steel rim. The arrow is filled. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/325203-help-to-authenticate-a-35-summilux-v1/?do=findComment&comment=4292580'>More sharing options...
Erik van Straten Posted October 14, 2021 Share #51 Posted October 14, 2021 Hi Steven, yes, I think yours could really be an authentic black one. In any case it is NOT an obvious fake. It is also not a lens head from a goggled Summilux. Then the index point of the f-stop would be 4mm left from the index point for the dinstance ring (these are seen often). Did you make any pictures with the lens? Erik. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik van Straten Posted October 14, 2021 Share #52 Posted October 14, 2021 gelatin silver print (summilux 35mm steel rim v2) leica mp Erik. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/325203-help-to-authenticate-a-35-summilux-v1/?do=findComment&comment=4292658'>More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 14, 2021 Author Share #53 Posted October 14, 2021 24 minutes ago, Erik van Straten said: Hi Steven, yes, I think yours could really be an authentic black one. In any case it is NOT an obvious fake. It is also not a lens head from a goggled Summilux. Then the index point of the f-stop would be 4mm left from the index point for the dinstance ring (these are seen often). Did you make any pictures with the lens? Erik. If it was a modified one from the M3 version, it would have a yellow gold line on the top, where the googles was before being removed. There is another obvious difference. The bottom ring of the lens is flat on the M3 version, while it has "teeth" on the M2 version. I didn't take pictures from the lens because it is not mine yet! I was checking for authenticity before buying it. But I did try many 177xxxx in chrome. They are not the sharpest at all, but they are the one with the best signature. 176 and 177 have a very nice glow, much more subtle than the very mid production batches of the V2. The real lottery with those lenses is the flare. We all know it flares a lot, but some have nicer rings than others. It seems to depend on many factors, mostly that have to do with time and condition. For example, I have one with a gorgeous rainbow ring flare. Brought it to grease at the repair shop once. The guy took the initiative to clean the blades which supposedly were too oily. After that, it never flared like it used too. A pity. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 14, 2021 Author Share #54 Posted October 14, 2021 Just had Tamarkin in Chicago take a look at the lens. He calls it real. I’m starting to get a good list of validation: Tamarkin, Jim Lager, Lars, Jo Geier, Leica themselves….. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik van Straten Posted October 14, 2021 Share #55 Posted October 14, 2021 I have both a 1777XXX and a 2060XXX. 2060XXX is with goggles and the other without. Often I use the 2060XXX lens head (unscrews easily) in the focusing mount of the 1777XXX because 2060XXX is the better lens. Stopped down a bit the 1777XXX is also very good. I am sure that the 206XXXX series is a new computation, but I find the goggles a PITA. That is why I am happy having both versions. gelatin silver print (summilux 35mm steelrim 2060XXX) leica m2 Erik. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/325203-help-to-authenticate-a-35-summilux-v1/?do=findComment&comment=4292711'>More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 15, 2021 Author Share #56 Posted October 15, 2021 8 hours ago, Erik van Straten said: I have both a 1777XXX and a 2060XXX. 2060XXX is with goggles and the other without. Often I use the 2060XXX lens head (unscrews easily) in the focusing mount of the 1777XXX because 2060XXX is the better lens. Stopped down a bit the 1777XXX is also very good. I am sure that the 206XXXX series is a new computation, but I find the goggles a PITA. That is why I am happy having both versions. gelatin silver print (summilux 35mm steelrim 2060XXX) leica m2 Erik. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 206xxxx is known as "the real last batch". Some Asian collectors call it "the Gold coated". It's by far the best of all the Pre Asph lineup, in my opinion. Yesterday morning, an M2 version from the 206 batch came on sell (from Leicafai, on instagram). I asked to buy it within 10 minutes of his post. It had already been sold for 24K euros. Just last month he sold a 216xxx for the same price. For reference, a mint 177xxxx today trades around 14/15K. My take on this is that while there is indeed a difference between the two lenses, the collectors are finding ways to take the market to a new level of madness, by justifying new price increases where they can. I'll also add that the conversation we are currently having probably adds a lot of value to their thesis! Maybe in ten years from now, auction customers will read this chat and start bidding higher on these good batches. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 15, 2021 Author Share #57 Posted October 15, 2021 My two favorite girls, with my two favorite lenses. 176xxxx for the mother, 177xxxxxx for the daughter. M10R. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/325203-help-to-authenticate-a-35-summilux-v1/?do=findComment&comment=4292892'>More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 15, 2021 Author Share #58 Posted October 15, 2021 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/325203-help-to-authenticate-a-35-summilux-v1/?do=findComment&comment=4292893'>More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 15, 2021 Author Share #59 Posted October 15, 2021 Who said it flares ! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/325203-help-to-authenticate-a-35-summilux-v1/?do=findComment&comment=4292894'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 15, 2021 Share #60 Posted October 15, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, Erik van Straten said: This is the oldest black one I could find in my archives. Now we have to find the differences. I see that the triangle index point is different. On yours it is all white. On the example I show it is black in a white frame, but that could be due to wear and tear. The biggest difference is the spelling of the word "Canada" on the focusing ring. On the old Summilux 35mm it is "Canada", but on yours it is CANADA. However, in my files "Canada" and "CANADA" both appear from time to time. So more research is needed I guess. The red dot may also be an indication. On the earliest lenses it is not seen, but later only from time to time, not always. Erik. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! really old for a black ! Similar to the 1765620 (https://www.leitz-auction.com/auction/en/auctions/auction23a ) .. which has the triangle white filled... but I think that Ontario factory, for those "special order" items,,, didn't follow strict work instructions... 🙄 ... "Canada" vs. "CANADA" is another example... and the red dot too... I thought that all the 1.77x.xxx and before had the dot painted ... but saw a 1765xxx with the plastic one (which could have been glued on later, of course) Edited October 15, 2021 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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