Steven Posted October 8, 2021 Share #1 Posted October 8, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello, Need help of people with experience. I am close to complete my Summilux 35 V1 collection. All I need left is the very sought after "black steel rim". It's hard to find, especially real ones, as the market seems flooded with fakes and repaints. Anyone has any clue on weather this one is real of fake ? Thanks Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/325203-help-to-authenticate-a-35-summilux-v1/?do=findComment&comment=4288816'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 8, 2021 Posted October 8, 2021 Hi Steven, Take a look here Help to authenticate a 35 Summilux V1. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
alan mcfall Posted October 8, 2021 Share #2 Posted October 8, 2021 1778173 is chrome, and my 1778671 is chrome, but I think that is meaningless, as aside from the early 35 summilux lot of 1730xxx where there are many chrome, the later lots seem to be of much more random finish, as if the black paint ones were just pulled aside before chrome plating to fulfill special orders. Chrome production did not carry on too much longer, and they are hard to find today also. The early lens hoods were marked with the code word, and later the code number, maybe that helps the idea that your lens and hood match. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 8, 2021 Share #3 Posted October 8, 2021 (edited) What is your doubt about ? To assess if the paint was applied at factory when the lens was built or later I think it's really difficult... maybe some anilisys on the material would be necessary... your lens looks, from the pics, identical to the 1777623 displayed by Lager (supposedly original)... seems to me that the red dot for f/stop ref is a bit larger in your one... but this (if true) could well be a normal little variation on a not critical manufacturing detail... My opinion is that if the paint was applied later, and by a 3rd party, is a really well made job... and given that it looks not a recent paint, I doubt it could have been made so well in a time when such items were not overpriced as they are in these years. My OLLUX is identical to yours ... but this doesn't mean anything... and on the lens the "CANADA" writing (on the distance ring - not the "LENS MADE IN CANADA" on the base ring) is not in full capital... it is "Canada" : but my lens is 1765850 - chrome - so from a previous batch: I see that some items in the 177xxxx haven't anymore this "redundant" writing (probably they thought that it was excessive to evidence 3 times, on such a small lens, that it came from Canada... 😄), but don't know if this is significant. Edited October 8, 2021 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackBarn Posted October 9, 2021 Share #4 Posted October 9, 2021 Hi Steven, I had a question about my 1958 Black 35mm Summaron. Sent ‘info@leica-camera.com’ the question and received a reply in two days from a guy at Leica called Peter Brieger. Very helpful…. That might be worth a try. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 9, 2021 Author Share #5 Posted October 9, 2021 12 hours ago, BlackBarn said: Hi Steven, I had a question about my 1958 Black 35mm Summaron. Sent ‘info@leica-camera.com’ the question and received a reply in two days from a guy at Leica called Peter Brieger. Very helpful…. That might be worth a try. many many thanks ! will give it a go. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted October 9, 2021 Share #6 Posted October 9, 2021 I would also check with Lars Netopil on this. I would look at comparable black Summilux lenses to see if the patina matches. I don't know if Leitz at the time painted over what would normally be a chrome lens, or painted over brass. I don't think the original lenses were all brass mounts, as they were mixed light alloy as the Summaron 2.8 and 8 element Summicrons were. As Luigi pointed out, if this lens was not original and forged to increase value, this was not done years ago as there was no real financial incentive to do so. I would also look into the provenance of this lens. If the previous owner had it for years, it is most likely legit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 9, 2021 Author Share #7 Posted October 9, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) 2 hours ago, derleicaman said: I would also check with Lars Netopil on this. I would look at comparable black Summilux lenses to see if the patina matches. I don't know if Leitz at the time painted over what would normally be a chrome lens, or painted over brass. I don't think the original lenses were all brass mounts, as they were mixed light alloy as the Summaron 2.8 and 8 element Summicrons were. As Luigi pointed out, if this lens was not original and forged to increase value, this was not done years ago as there was no real financial incentive to do so. I would also look into the provenance of this lens. If the previous owner had it for years, it is most likely legit. Very good tip, Bill. Thanks. I did shoot an email to Lars but he was probably too busy with today's auction to answer. Unfortunately, many people have told me that it looks like a fake so far. Their main argument is that the tab looks like black chrome, when it should be black paint. The lens is with a dealer from North America that you all know, and that in infamous for selling fake items... I'm very sad to have to pass... unless lars gives me some hope... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted October 10, 2021 Share #8 Posted October 10, 2021 Don't pass, the pieces painted are from the same blood... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 10, 2021 Author Share #9 Posted October 10, 2021 (edited) 41 minutes ago, jc_braconi said: Don't pass, the pieces painted are from the same blood... What do you mean exactly ? if it’s a chrome repainted in black, I could just purchase a chrome for 5 times less. Or am I missing something ? Edited October 10, 2021 by Steven Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 10, 2021 Share #10 Posted October 10, 2021 (edited) As a preamble : - I have never been in love with blacks (prefer the chromes...) so don't pretend to be an expert on the question black paint on brass (^) / black paint on steel / black anodizing / black chrome... 🤥 - I have never had the goal to own all the variants of Summilux 35 (of the Summaron 3,5 yes... 😉 much less costly) so never studied in depth the matter - Don't want to influence your decision (which probably involves no few money...) However... your doubt about originality of the finishing probably arises mainly looking at the focus knob, so looked at similar items auctioned by Westlicht in past years (of course all claimed as original) : all of them had good details on the focus knob, and apart one in the 1765xxx, most are in the 177xxxx : (*) (the knob is clearly not in brass, I'd say...) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! (further details : one looks to have some writing in yellow... which looks someway odd... and one has the dot for f/stop ref that isn't red...) Edited October 10, 2021 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! (further details : one looks to have some writing in yellow... which looks someway odd... and one has the dot for f/stop ref that isn't red...) ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/325203-help-to-authenticate-a-35-summilux-v1/?do=findComment&comment=4289921'>More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 10, 2021 Author Share #11 Posted October 10, 2021 13 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said: As a preamble : - I have never been in love with blacks (prefer the chromes...) so don't pretend to be an expert on the question black paint on brass (^) / black paint on steel / black anodizing / black chrome... 🤥 - I have never had the goal to own all the variants of Summilux 35 (of the Summaron 3,5 yes... 😉 much less costly) so never studied in depth the matter - Don't want to influence your decision (which probably involves no few money...) However... your doubt about originality of the finishing probably arises mainly looking at the focus knob, so looked at similar items auctioned by Westlicht in past years (of course all claimed as original) : all of them had good details on the focus knob, and apart one in the 1765xxx, most are in the 177xxxx : (*) (the knob is clearly not in brass, I'd say...) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! (further details : one looks to have some writing in yellow... which looks someway odd... and one has the dot for f/stop ref that isn't red...) Luigi, this is extremely useful. Thanks for taking the time to write. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 10, 2021 Author Share #12 Posted October 10, 2021 This is the answer I've just gotten from Lars, although I don't know what to make of it ! "I have not yet personally seen one that was overpainted from a chrome one. Leitz Factory shipping records by serial numbers do not indicate any finish or colour version for those lenses. In any case, although the lens is typically called „black paint“, the lens barrel must NOT be painted black. In case you find it in paint, the lens must be wrong. The original black lens of this type had the outer visible parts of the lens mount made from aluminium, anodized in black. Which is a galvanic process and nothing spayed-on." Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted October 10, 2021 Share #13 Posted October 10, 2021 (edited) Leica Wiki says: the later ones were black painted and not from brass Materials - Chrome plated brass (early); black lacquered alloy (late) Edited October 10, 2021 by jankap Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 10, 2021 Share #14 Posted October 10, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, jankap said: Leica Wiki says: the later ones were black painted and not from brass Materials - Chrome plated brass (early); black lacquered alloy (late) Uhm... this surely does impact weight... Wiki says 245 (goggled) or 195g ... not specifying the question of material : my item is 220 indeed (no surprise, an old chrome 1765850...) ; Steven, can you weigh the item you are dealing of ? Edited October 10, 2021 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted October 11, 2021 Share #15 Posted October 11, 2021 Steven, I would contact Lars Netopil. Do you have his email? I will ask Jim Lager for his take. This is a tough one, as with the areas showing wear, I am seeing satin chrome. The focus tab and lock my only have been available originally in satin chrome, and then painted. The lens barrel should have been bare brass and then painted. As Alan points out, serial number lists aren’t of much help. The OLLUX hood looks legit. As promised, I contacted Jim Lager about this lens, and here is his take on it The 35mm f1.4 Summilux in black ( for the M2 ) is within ELC serial numbers ( 1960 ) as follows:1765001-1766200 and 1777001-1780000. Black paint over chrome parts is seen on a regular basis. The black anodizing can show considerable variation. Some lenses show completely different anodizing shades on the same lens. I always wondered...did Leitz really let such a lens pass quality control? Bill, 1778177 looks good to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 11, 2021 Author Share #16 Posted October 11, 2021 7 hours ago, derleicaman said: Steven, I would contact Lars Netopil. Do you have his email? I will ask Jim Lager for his take. This is a tough one, as with the areas showing wear, I am seeing satin chrome. The focus tab and lock my only have been available originally in satin chrome, and then painted. The lens barrel should have been bare brass and then painted. As Alan points out, serial number lists aren’t of much help. The OLLUX hood looks legit. As promised, I contacted Jim Lager about this lens, and here is his take on it The 35mm f1.4 Summilux in black ( for the M2 ) is within ELC serial numbers ( 1960 ) as follows:1765001-1766200 and 1777001-1780000. Black paint over chrome parts is seen on a regular basis. The black anodizing can show considerable variation. Some lenses show completely different anodizing shades on the same lens. I always wondered...did Leitz really let such a lens pass quality control? Bill, 1778177 looks good to me. Hi Bill, Thank you so much for this. It's quite a big news for me, as Jim is the first one to say clearly that the lens is real. Very valuable info, thank you so much for the help. I did email Lars, and I posted his answers just above in post #12, although it was not as clear as Jim. Thank so so much for this, very helpful. Steven 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted October 11, 2021 Share #17 Posted October 11, 2021 On 10/10/2021 at 6:28 PM, Steven said: What do you mean exactly ? if it’s a chrome repainted in black, I could just purchase a chrome for 5 times less. Or am I missing something ? Sorry, I do not know the level of your collection and what is the price asked so I'll stay out of the matter. I have, modestly, one chrome for M3 with OLLUX and one black. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/325203-help-to-authenticate-a-35-summilux-v1/?do=findComment&comment=4290536'>More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted October 11, 2021 Share #18 Posted October 11, 2021 Interested to see what the focus tab and lock look like on your example. Is the chrome showing through on yours. Back to Jim Lager's comment about inconsistent anodizing from Leica. I have seen this myself on lenses. I don't remember if this is one in my collection or a customer lens from my dealership. I have seen anodizing that is black as would be expected and then with a noticeable brown undertone. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 11, 2021 Author Share #19 Posted October 11, 2021 Received this morning from Leica: “Dear Mr. , many thanks for your request. The lens you mentioned is from 1960, unfortunately I can't narrow down the date. After consulting our service technicians, this lens seems to be real. Do not hesitate to contact us again if you have further questions. Mit freundlichen Gruessen / kind regards Peter Brieger Leica Camera AG Customer Care Produkt Support” 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 11, 2021 Author Share #20 Posted October 11, 2021 Looks like i might have found a real one after all. All the people who told me the lens was fake were either dealers or owners of the lens. Could it have been out of jealousy ? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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