a dramatic proof of the new 35 APO supremacy?

[mmradman]

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1 hour ago, Anbaric said:

How is it compared to Portugal, where much (most?) of Leica's manufacturing happens?

When I see that Leica charge £120 for a UV filter (with an alloy ring, these days), while German precision company Schneider-Kreuznach charge about £50 for their top of the range B+W equivalent (with a brass ring), I begin to wonder if we need to apply a 'supremacy multiplier' of around 2.4x to understand where Leica prices come from.

It must be the shipment form Portugal to Germany that adds the cost 😄

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[AndreasG]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Anbaric:

How is it compared to Portugal, where much (most?) of Leica's manufacturing happens?

When I see that Leica charge £120 for a UV filter (with an alloy ring, these days), while German precision company Schneider-Kreuznach charge about £50 for their top of the range B+W equivalent (with a brass ring), I begin to wonder if we need to apply a 'supremacy multiplier' of around 2.4x to understand where Leica prices come from.

Hourly labor cost in Portugal is just half of the German cost (Source: ILO).

Keep in mind, brass is an alloy as well - made from Copper and Zinc.

Edited April 28, 2021 by AndreasG

[AndreasG]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb mmradman:

It must be the shipment form Portugal to Germany that adds the cost 😄

Yes, you can stretch to 39.000km if you go westbound first...

[Anbaric]

8 minutes ago, AndreasG said:

Hourly labor cost in Portugal is just half of the German cost (Source: ILO).

Keep in mind, brass is an alloy as well - made from Copper and Zinc.

Good point. But only Leica have found a way of alloying aluminium and supremacy.

[horosu]

On 4/27/2021 at 5:44 AM, Herr Barnack said:

Please accept my profuse apologies - I was unaware that you are the sole arbiter of what works and what is disingenuous.

Appended or not, the definition is still applicable to the lens in question.

 

 

I beg, again, to differ. 

Is is the sharpest? Probably (although, I haven't seen comparisons to the C-Biogon or Distagon)

Does it have the smallest MFD? Yes (although other M-lenses might appear with the same MFD)

Does it have the least distortion? No (the Biogons have zero)

Does it vignette the least? No (the venerable Summicron ASPH has less)

Does is have the most beautiful drawing? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

 

So, to be clear, that was what I had in mind when I asked to  "Define supremacy".

Cheers!

Edited April 28, 2021 by horosu

[lct]

59 minutes ago, horosu said:

Does it have the least distortion? No (the Biogons have zero)

My 35/2.8 Biogon is "supreme" there indeed . What about CA? Is the "Cron apo as good as the Biogon there? Just curious.

[hdmesa]

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8 hours ago, AndreasG said:

I don't think that the labor force in Japan is less skilled or works with less precision compared to Germany. However cost of labor is approx. 70% compared with Germany.

It's not just that, it's the incredibly small size of the Leica 35 APO versus the much larger CV. The precision and time needed to assemble the Leica is higher.

[AndreasG]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb hdmesa:

The precision and time needed to assemble the Leica is higher.

This is just speculation.

[jankap]

Firstly, 90% (?) of the price ticket is marketing. The labor force people are educated to machine products for a certain tolerance, independent where they live. It is not a question of the time of the day, the skill of the people must be sufficient to understand the tolerance requirements. Otherwise they produce for the bin.

Edited April 28, 2021 by jankap

[pedaes]

4 hours ago, lct said:

My 35/2.8 Biogon is "supreme"

Probably because it is 'only' 2.8 ( when we have 10000ISO available) this lens does not get the recognition it deserves.

At the end of his review, Sean Reid suggests he will be 'interested' to see how the 35APO holds up against the 2.8 Biogon.

[lct]

I have no idea about the CV lens but i thought that the Cron 35/2 apo is bigger than the Lux 35/1.4 FLE. I could be interested if it were significantly smaller. 

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, AndreasG said:

This is just speculation.

Yeah, the Leica 35 APO that close-focuses to 30cm in such a compact size is surely just as easy to assemble as the CV 35 APO 🙄

[LarsHP]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

Yeah, the Leica 35 APO that close-focuses to 30cm in such a compact size is surely just as easy to assemble as the CV 35 APO 🙄

Following this logic, several Voigtländer lenses should be much more expensive than their Leica counterparts since they focus to 50cm whereas the Leica only focus to 70cm.

Floating elements complicates the construction, but the 35mm Apo-Lanthar VM has that too. I doubt there is much difference in construction and design between making it focus down to 30cm versus 50cm, but my guess is just as good or bad as anyone's. That said, the size (length) difference is quite noticeable: 58mm versus 41mm (49mm w/ hood). The question is then: "Do I want to pay several thousand dollars for that smaller size?"

BTW: The Voigtländer weighs 304 grams while the Leica is 320 grams in case weight is more important than size. The diameter is about the same (55mm vs 53mm).

Quote from the link below:

"Lens design includes apochromatic color correction, floating lens elements for better close focusing performance, two double sided aspherical elements,  five abnormal partial dispersion elements and superior multi-coating for outstanding flare control."

https://shop.cameraquest.com/voigtlander-leica-mount-lenses/voigtlander-35mm-f/2-apo-lanthar-m/

[setuporg]

A Leica M motto: "Size matters!"

[setuporg]

As a result of this thread I've ordered the 35 APO-Lanthar and both 35mm/2.0 vintage Type I and Type II because I can't decide whether that knob and chrome on black is better than matte silver without handling both.  (They are discounting type I now that type II is out.). AFAIU the optics in type I/II is the same.  All of that still weighs in as a third of Leica 35 APO in price.

[LarsHP]

2 minutes ago, setuporg said:

A Leica M motto: "Size matters!"

Right. That's why I have gone the odd route and use M lenses on a modded mirrorless camera (Nikon Z6 with Kolari Vision Ultra Thin mod. sensor glass). That said, size is not the only priority. I prefer fast and relatively small lenses (like the Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.2 Asph VM) over very small and slow ones.

[setuporg]

2 minutes ago, LarsHP said:

I prefer fast and relatively small lenses (like the Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.2 Asph VM) over very small and slow ones.

Since I also like SL2 and S lines it cracks me up when M folks fight over sizes of their little lenses.:). E.g. 24 and 28 Summiluxes are still infinitesimal compared to any MF lens or any SL APO prime.  It's also funny how Voigtlander reviews often use MF for Manual Focus instead of Medium Format, as if they have no idea that could be used in that sense too.:)

Edited April 28, 2021 by setuporg

[LarsHP]

Just now, setuporg said:

Since I also like SL2 and S lines it cracks me up when M folks fight over sizes of their little lenses.:). E.g. 24 and 28 Summiluxes are still infinitesimal compared to any MF lens or any SL APO prime.

Exactly. Think the Zeiss Otus and Sigma Art lenses are good examples of top performing lenses that are so huge that I don't want to carry them. The best camera (and lens) is the one you carry.

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[jankap]

7 minutes ago, setuporg said:

A Leica M motto: "Size matters!"

Is not the need to prevent the shadowing of the viewfinder forcing the need to design small (and more expensive) lenses? Of course not for the 90mm and 135mm lenses.

[Jeff S]

Practical issues can indeed arise when larger M lenses block the lower right frame line area.  The recent trend toward faster and larger M lenses, e.g., 75 Noctilux and 90 Summilux, suggest that Leica will do something with the M to improve the EVF experience, either in-body or through accessory.  Until then, many will resort to SL system adaptation.  Same issue with apparent trend to 30cm MFD, which can’t be accommodated by the RF.

Jeff