mmradman Posted April 29, 2021 Share #101 Posted April 29, 2021 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) 2 hours ago, jaapv said: LUF members are one group of watchers. Edited April 29, 2021 by mmradman Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 29, 2021 Posted April 29, 2021 Hi mmradman, Take a look here a dramatic proof of the new 35 APO supremacy?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mmradman Posted April 29, 2021 Share #102 Posted April 29, 2021 (edited) 49 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said: I must say, the concept of supremacy is a bit of a straw man - suggest a given lens is the best thing since sliced bread, then set about proving it. To what end? Then we get into the “luxury” discussion and Leica not being 5 times better than another brand …. Production cost isn’t linear, nor is quality. Leica, a small company in a high cost country, trying to make the best lenses they can to a given formula (that goes with the M system) is never going to be cheap. But what they produce is usually special. For myself, I try to identify the lens in the focal length I want, buy the one that sounds like it will suit my needs best and move on. If I liked the 35mm focal length, I’d buy this APO in a heartbeat. What lenses Leica produce are usually excellent but nothing unique and I believe premium is more market positioning than actual cost. Every time I see someone states how Leica is a small company I think of a well known Cooke Optics, business about one hour drive from me. I suggest you check them out on web, use google earth and put UK post code LE4 8PT, where they operate from is essentially anonymous small industrial estate which in the UK host small businesses doing metal bashing, fixing cars, maybe stocking some kind of building material, etc, no fancy HQs and no boutique shops in big cities round the globe. https://www.cookeoptics.com/ Hows this for a cottage industry 😀 https://www.cookeoptics.com/u/factorytour.html https://www.cookeoptics.com/techdoc/FC4C8E93664E053A85258546006AAE3B/Cooke-Book-FDTimes-CookeTour2020.pdf Edited April 29, 2021 by mmradman 4 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 29, 2021 Share #103 Posted April 29, 2021 The reissue of legendary lenses is quite unique, as were all Noctiluxes , the Summilux 50 asph was hailed as the best 50 ever, the Summilux 75, the Summiluxes 21 and 24, the APO Telyt Modul system, the Summicron 50 APO ,the Telyt 180/3.4 APO, and I have just started. I’d say that many Leica lenses were quite unique at their release and quite a few still are. 6 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 30, 2021 Share #104 Posted April 30, 2021 1 hour ago, jaapv said: The reissue of legendary lenses is quite unique, as were all Noctiluxes , the Summilux 50 asph was hailed as the best 50 ever, the Summilux 75, the Summiluxes 21 and 24, the APO Telyt Modul system, the Summicron 50 APO ,the Telyt 180/3.4 APO, and I have just started. I’d say that many Leica lenses were quite unique at their release and quite a few still are. Indeed and if Leica is not unique please name its competitor(s). Something we could do up to the seventies with Zeiss but now? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted April 30, 2021 Share #105 Posted April 30, 2021 2 hours ago, mmradman said: What lenses Leica produce are usually excellent but nothing unique and I believe premium is more market positioning than actual cost. Every time I see someone states how Leica is a small company I think of a well known Cooke Optics, business about one hour drive from me. I suggest you check them out on web, use google earth and put UK post code LE4 8PT, where they operate from is essentially anonymous small industrial estate which in the UK host small businesses doing metal bashing, fixing cars, maybe stocking some kind of building material, etc, no fancy HQs and no boutique shops in big cities round the globe. https://www.cookeoptics.com/ Hows this for a cottage industry 😀 https://www.cookeoptics.com/u/factorytour.html https://www.cookeoptics.com/techdoc/FC4C8E93664E053A85258546006AAE3B/Cooke-Book-FDTimes-CookeTour2020.pdf Let’s see: 21 Summilux ASPH 28 Summilux ASPH 50 Summilux ASPH, 0.95 Noctilux & APO Summicron 75 Summilux All unique in their own ways, not counting the 28 Summaron-M and 50 Summitar … 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted April 30, 2021 Share #106 Posted April 30, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, lct said: Indeed and if Leica is not unique please name its competitor(s)... Hasselblad is the only company that even remotely comes to mind, but I'm not sure how long they will be with us. Voigtlander should find their own electronics partner and make cameras the equal of their own M lenses. Edited April 30, 2021 by hdmesa 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreasG Posted April 30, 2021 Share #107 Posted April 30, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) vor 4 Stunden schrieb hdmesa: Hasselblad is the only company that even remotely comes to mind, but I'm not sure how long they will be with us. Voigtlander should find their own electronics partner and make cameras the equal of their own M lenses. Hasselblad is owned by the Chinese DJI Group for a couple of years, but already earlier ownership resp. major shareholders have changed frequently. Around 1995 Voigtlaender camera bodies in Leica M style were available under the brand "Bessa", but as far as I remember not very successful, though the cameras were quite robust, I still keep one. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted April 30, 2021 Share #108 Posted April 30, 2021 5 hours ago, IkarusJohn said: Let’s see: 21 Summilux ASPH 28 Summilux ASPH 50 Summilux ASPH, 0.95 Noctilux & APO Summicron 75 Summilux All unique in their own ways, not counting the 28 Summaron-M and 50 Summitar … The "uniquness" you refer to not sure how much it is relevant to creating the image. I have and use five of the six listed lenses, all are excellent. One that stand for me out due to the small size and high image quality is APO 50mm. I also use other make (not M mount) and quality of image and utility of the tool is not unique to Leica. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 30, 2021 Share #109 Posted April 30, 2021 Have people forgotten the RD-1? It was the first digital rangefinder camera - and a pretty good one too. Built by Epson in two 10.000 batches. However the customer service was Epson: abysmal and they never repeated. (yes, there was a small release for the Japanese market afterwards) The Bessa cameras were a bit earlier than 1995 -Voigtlànder has been building them since 1954 - and the Prominent before that. Voigtlàlader is a venerable name in the optics world - it was founded in 1756. They built the first zoom lens ( the Zoomar 36-82 2.8) in 1959, thereby naming a lens type. Leica cannot get close. They merged with Zeiss and are now owned by Ringfoto ( a well-known name in Germany, mainly for cheap camera shops in the past) and farms their production out to Cosina, like Zeiss. Basically Voigtlànder are the second-tier Zeiss lenses. However Cosina is slowly shutting the Zeiss brand down - they have replaced the "Classic" SLR line by Milvus, for instance. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 30, 2021 Share #110 Posted April 30, 2021 2 minutes ago, mmradman said: The "uniquness" you refer to not sure how much it is relevant to creating the image. I have and use five of the six listed lenses, all are excellent. One that stand for me out due to the small size and high image quality is APO 50mm. I also use other make (not M mount) and quality of image and utility of the tool is not unique to Leica. Well, if you want to take a shallow=DOF wideangle image for instance, it is hard to find any other lens that can do it -or, at least was at the time of introduction of the Summiluxes - yes there were copycat products afterwards. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted April 30, 2021 Share #111 Posted April 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, jaapv said: Well, if you want to take a shallow=DOF wideangle image for instance, it is hard to find any other lens that can do it -or, at least was at the time of introduction of the Summiluxes - yes there were copycat products afterwards. By that logic we can just say Leica was first to introduce 135 format, all that came after were copycats, period. That is just a fact of history, since than many makes came to market, some offering its own uniqunesses. As this started about one specific new lens it is unque in many ways but it also suggest ways in which M camera may develop in the future, perhaps that is most unique about it. And by the way earlier wide summiluxes & other suffered of a minimum focus distance limit which seem to be addressed now, at significant premium combined with APO design. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 30, 2021 Share #112 Posted April 30, 2021 Yes, the close focus distance is another design choice caused by the limitations of the rangefinder system it impacts the relationship between lens size, lens speed, lens quality and lens price - I'm sure that everybody here understands that rangefinders are not universal cameras like SLRs, although the Visoflexes, both mechanical and electronic, are valiant attempts to expand the usefulness 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted April 30, 2021 Share #113 Posted April 30, 2021 9 hours ago, mmradman said: Every time I see someone states how Leica is a small company I think of a well known Cooke Optics Cooke (a sort of descendent of Taylor Hobson) produce low volume lenses a bit like Leica and these too are anything but cheap! It is still possible to get Speed Panchros refurbished and remounted in modern gear barrels by another business nearby too ..... FWIW I bought a cheap self-adjustable M fitting lens a few years ago and then sent it to a highly regarded and vastly experienced Leica lens repairer. It did not go down well! Although 'self-adjustable' in that its focus could be re-aligned by the user, in other ways it was built very basically and it was not possible to adjust it in any other way to optimise its performance. Well built? Well it worked ok and was physically well made using appropriate materials, but you really do get what you pay for and lower costs come at a price. If you want good lenses which can be kept going for decades, adjusted and optimised if they get out of alignment and which are built to a high standard then there are costs involved in their design and production. Suggesting that Leica (or Cooke come to that) make vast profits based on huge mark ups is simply naive. I'm sure that they would like to but they will both have high costs based on quality product production and especially so because they are small volume producers. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 30, 2021 Share #114 Posted April 30, 2021 24 minutes ago, mmradman said: By that logic we can just say Leica was first to introduce 135 format, all that came after were copycats, period. No, we can't The first production 35 mm camera was the Homeos by Jules Richard, 1913. And it holds the patent - there were a few earlier, unpatented attempts. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Automatically embedded link from French-Camera. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Automatically embedded link from French-Camera. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/320299-a-dramatic-proof-of-the-new-35-apo-supremacy/?do=findComment&comment=4191272'>More sharing options...
mmradman Posted April 30, 2021 Share #115 Posted April 30, 2021 27 minutes ago, jaapv said: No, we can't The first production 35 mm camera was the Homeos by Jules Richard, 1913. And it holds the patent - there were a few earlier, unpatented attempts. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Automatically embedded link from French-Camera. Similar layout to Barnaks prototype only bigger. Is this some sort of stereoscopic camera, there are two ports on the front of it, the optics must be behind metal shutter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 30, 2021 Share #116 Posted April 30, 2021 "Miniature cameras" were a worldwide technological trend at the time and Barnack was part of it. History singled him out as the inventor, despite others having similar ideas concurrently or even earlier - but that is the way history works. And he certainly was the most successful one. He was lucky enough to have the cooperation of Ernst Leitz and Max Berek. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted April 30, 2021 Share #117 Posted April 30, 2021 (edited) On 4/26/2021 at 6:29 PM, Kwesi said: I think, looking at the images from Jono's review, its safe to say the lens has that Karbe APO clarity which qualifies as a signature in its own right. Peter Karbe designed both the 50 APO Summicron and the 50 Summilux ASPH (also an APO), yet people maintain they can see the difference in clarity when both are shot at f/2.0. If that's true, I'd say it's likely the differences are not in the design, but more in the quality of glass used and the way it is ground. Edited April 30, 2021 by fotografr Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrostl Posted April 30, 2021 Share #118 Posted April 30, 2021 On 4/27/2021 at 5:38 PM, hdmesa said: As was mentioned, the 50 APOs have been compared: CV has heavier vignetting wide open, Leica has very little Was this tested without coding on both somewhere? I see a lot of "unfair fights" out there where (only) the Leica lens has in-camera vignette fixes because of coding. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted April 30, 2021 Share #119 Posted April 30, 2021 (edited) vor einer Stunde schrieb fotografr: ... the differences are not in the design, but more in the quality of glass used and the way it is ground. Huh!? The glass quality chosen and the ways it's ground is the design. That said, the supremacy of the Apo-Summicron-M 35 mm Asph over the regular 35 mm Summicrons and Summiluxes is comparable to the supremacy of the Apo-Summicron-M 50 mm Asph over the regular 50 mm Summicons and Summiluxes. That is: significant to the discerning observer but neither ground-breaking nor world-shattering. It exactly what's to expect when an already excellent design gets improved. And oh—the bokeh is very nice. So is the flare resistance. Edited April 30, 2021 by 01af 3 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted April 30, 2021 Share #120 Posted April 30, 2021 (edited) 20 minutes ago, 01af said: Huh!? The glass quality chosen and the ways it's ground is the design. So, the designer doesn't determine how to put the pieces of glass together? Karbe's only role was to select the glass and calculate how to grind it? I guess I've been misinformed. As to the bokeh, I find the 50 Summilux ASPH vastly more pleasing in the OOF areas than the APO 50. I do not have the APO 35 for comparison, but I find the bokeh and flare resistance of the 35 Summilux FLE to be quite satisfactory. Flare resistance has more to do with lens coating than design, or maybe I'm misinformed about that as well. Edited April 30, 2021 by fotografr 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.