Nicht immer nur Kaviar ... (English Version)

[wlaidlaw]

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6 hours ago, pgk said:

You could try https://www.newtonellis.com who will work on old stuff. They serviced an 1894 TTH lens with a near seized diaphragm for me and it works perfectly now.

Thanks Paul. I have already got a Rolleinar 28-105 QBM to go off to Newton Ellis, with the inevitable seized diaphragm. I have been looking for another 28-105 for the last two years to use on my Rollei 3003 and every one that has come up on Fleabay has had a stuck diaphragm. Luckily I don't need Contax service, as my IIaCD works just fine or would if I ever used it but with various film M's to use, with a choice of excellent Leica lenses, why would I opt to use the Contax instead. I really only keep it for the family connection. However I see quite a lot of posts on RFF of folks looking for Contax service. Whereas the 1954 50/f1.5 Opton Sonnar on the Contax is excellent for the period and a country mile better technically than the contemporaneous Leica 50/1.5 Summarit, the rest of the Contax, in particular its ergonomics, with the finger shredding focus wheel and dim, small and dingy VF/RF is mediocre and had not really been improved over the previous 20 years, where Leica had gone from the Model III to the M3, a big jump. I occasionally use the Opton Sonnar with a Amadeo Muscelli adapter, on an M body but mine is one the early adapters, before he reversed the direction of focusing to match Leica. 

Wilson

Edited July 30, 2022 by wlaidlaw

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[Ambro51]

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[willeica]

FED S produced in Kharkiv, Ukraine. I believe this is the Type 2 Version, as described below the photos. 

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From Camerapedia:

"FED-S

1938-1941

Same appearances as the original FEDs except:

Faster top speed of 1/1000

Faster FED 50mm f/2 lens

This model of FED-1 was designated "S" by the factory and 20000 units of this model were made.

It was an attempt to make the FED a "system camera" similar to what the Leica had evolved into.

There are 3 sub-types:

Type 1 is similar to FED type 2d and engraving: FED Trudkommuna NKVD-UkSSR IM F.E.Dzerjinski Kharkiv (= ФЭД Трудкоммуна НКВД -УCCP им. Ф.Э. Дзержинского Харьков)

Type 2 is similar to FED type 3 and engraving: FED NKVD-USSR Kharkiv Combinat IM. F.E. Dzerjinsky (= ФЭД НКВД - CССР Харьковский комбинат им. Ф.Э. Дзержинского)

Type 3 is similar to FED type 9 (Berdsk) and engraving: FED Labor commune NKVD-USSR in the name of F.E.Dzerjinski Kharkiv (=FED Trudkommuna NKVD-USSR IM F.E.Dzerjinski Kharkiv = ФЭД Трудкоммуна НКВД -УCCP им. Ф.Э. Дзержинского Харьков)"

I believe that these items were made for senior officials and officers and were a variant of the FED C and sometimes called the "Komandirskij FED".

Comments would be most welcome.

William 

 

[wlaidlaw]

William,

So many of these have been converted into fake Leicas, I would imagine that nice condition FED 2 cameras like yours must be becoming rare. Is the lens an F2 Sonnar clone? 

Wilson

PS After a small amount of research, I found the lens derives from an old Taylor Hobson design from 1920. 6 Elements in 4 groups. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by wlaidlaw

[willeica]

42 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

William,

So many of these have been converted into fake Leicas, I would imagine that nice condition FED 2 cameras like yours must be becoming rare. Is the lens an F2 Sonnar clone? 

Wilson

PS After a small amount of research, I found the lens derives from an old Taylor Hobson design from 1920. 6 Elements in 4 groups. 

Thanks Wilson

The lens looks not dissimilar to a Summar. I actually have a better example of this lens which I got with a set of FED lenses. The workmanship and materials used in FSU cameras and lenses are not of the same quality as those produced by Leitz in the same period. There can be problems with shutters, rangefinders and the focus mechanisms on lenses and most need a CLA of the camera together with the lens to get everything working and matched up.

Oscar Fricke, son of Rolf, is, I believe, an expert on FSU cameras. I was in touch with him recently over the Oscar/Oskar business. I might ask him about this particular 'offshoot' of the FED series.

William 

[zeitz]

HPR's book Leica Copies shows a Fed Family Tree on page 318.  Your engraving is identified as Type III - 1939.  Some time has passed since the publication of HPR's book.  Camerapedia may have more recent information.

Dieter Walzholz' book The Soviet Copies of the Leica II has much more detail.  Just a quick perusal of the book shows a top plate of a FED-1d Engraving Type 4 (sn 130245) on page 16 which matches your plate.

[pippy]

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Hello William.

It is almost certainly, as you state, a nice example of the second main(*) variant - i.e based on the 1939-'41 FED-1 (D) model - of the "Komandirskij FED" which is often given the PE0266 model designation. Easiest way to confirm would be to check to see whether there is the circular hole on the film pressure plate. This feature was discontinued for the slightly later PE0267 examples.

I've posted the link to this source previously but for anyone new to the FED-1 cameras and would like to know more the information found herein is a good starting-point;

http://www.sovietcams.com/indexeb86.html?tmpl_into=middle&tmpl_id=279&_m_e_id=16&_menu_i_id=87

Philip.

* When discussing the "Komandirskij" FED cameras, and as can be seen in the link, the first main variant - those based on the FED-1(C) - had, itself, four slightly different sub-versions; PE0245/246/247/248. As mentioned above the FED-1(D) had the PE0266/267 versions and the FED-1(E) had one version named PE0275.

[willeica]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

Hello William.

It is almost certainly, as you state, a nice example of the second main(*) variant - i.e based on the 1939-'41 FED-1 (D) model - of the "Komandirskij FED" which is often given the PE0266 model designation. Easiest way to confirm would be to check to see whether there is the circular hole on the film pressure plate. This feature was discontinued for the slightly later PE0267 examples.

I've posted the link to this source previously but for anyone new to the FED-1 cameras and would like to know more the information found herein is a good starting-point;

http://www.sovietcams.com/indexeb86.html?tmpl_into=middle&tmpl_id=279&_m_e_id=16&_menu_i_id=87

Philip.

* When discussing the "Komandirskij" FED cameras, and as can be seen in the link, the first main variant - those based on the FED-1(C) - had, itself, four slightly different sub-versions; PE0245/246/247/248. As mentioned above the FED-1(D) had the PE0266/267 versions and the FED-1(E) had one version named PE0275.

Thanks Philip. My friend, Roland Zwiers from the Netherlands, has done a piece for the PCCGB Photographica World magazine on cameras from Kyiv. If you are not a member of PCCGB I can send you the article. There is a broader piece to be done on cameras and photographers from Ukraine. Abraham Feldman was born in Kyiv, Ukraine in the late 19th Century, but achieved fame as Arthur Fields, there ‘Man of the Bridge’, on O’Connell Bridge in Dublin where he took commercial street photos for over 50 years. I have a photo of Abraham/ Arthur from the 1950s where he is using a Kiev camera, which came from the same place as he did. My camera from Kharkiv, Ukraine was of course produced under strict Soviet control

There is no circular hole that I can see on the pressure plate. Those type designations are very hard to follow and it seems that the type I have was produced over an extended period and SN range along with other models. The engraving on the top plate does match exactly what is in the camerapedia piece. I just bought this because of the Kharkiv reference and, in truth, FSU cameras and lenses are quite a mystery to me. I have a FED, a FED Zorki and a Zorki and that is it. They are interesting cameras, but the more I look into them the more I realise that I know very little about them. Fakes abound, of course. Most people are familiar with FSU Leica fakes, but there are plenty of fake FSU cameras as well. 

William 

Edited August 3, 2022 by willeica

[pippy]

7 minutes ago, willeica said:

...They are interesting cameras, but the more I look into them the more I realise that I know very little about them. Fakes abound, of course. Most people are familiar with FSU Leica fakes, but there are plenty of fake FSU cameras as well...

It can be difficult to discern whether any one particular FSU camera - FED, Zorki and 'KNEB' / Kiev ranges alike - is genuine or not partly because of the ease in which very old parts from a rare but broken body can be screwed onto a more modern chassis.

I didn't want to give you any worries regarding the authenticity of your camera but it might be an idea to confirm that there really is the shutter-speed range which should be there. I have handled some examples claiming to be "Komandirskij" FED cameras but occasionally the reality was that some unscrupulous person had merely installed a shutter-speed knob with the 1/1000 engraving onto a regular FED body. If it does have the correct shutter-speed range then All is Well and, as you say, serial numbers are far from being a reliable source of dating an example - especially those cameras being produced during that time-frame.

As far as the article on the Kyiv cameras is concerned I would very much like to have a read of it when it is available. I think you already know that I have one of the (seemingly very rare - 40 examples?) Kiev IIIa cameras which has the 'Roman'/Ukranian engraving instead of the ubiquitous 'Roman'/Cyrillic style and my interest in the Contax-copy cameras from Kyiv is quite high!

Philip.

[willeica]

25 minutes ago, pippy said:

It can be difficult to discern whether any one particular FSU camera - FED, Zorki and 'KNEB' / Kiev ranges alike - is genuine or not partly because of the ease in which very old parts from a rare but broken body can be screwed onto a more modern chassis.

I didn't want to give you any worries regarding the authenticity of your camera but it might be an idea to confirm that there really is the shutter-speed range which should be there. I have handled some examples claiming to be "Komandirskij" FED cameras but occasionally the reality was that some unscrupulous person had merely installed a shutter-speed knob with the 1/1000 engraving onto a regular FED body. If it does have the correct shutter-speed range then All is Well and, as you say, serial numbers are far from being a reliable source of dating an example - especially those cameras being produced during that time-frame.

As far as the article on the Kyiv cameras is concerned I would very much like to have a read of it when it is available. I think you already know that I have one of the (seemingly very rare - 40 examples?) Kiev IIIa cameras which has the 'Roman'/Ukranian engraving instead of the ubiquitous 'Roman'/Cyrillic style and my interest in the Contax-copy cameras from Kyiv is quite high!

Philip.

Thanks Philip. I will send the article to Wilson and yourself by email. The speed range seems to be there, but the shutter on the camera seems to be capping beyond 1/200th, which may be a bad sign. I may have it looked at sometime by a CLA person. I also need to have my FED Zorki looked at as the rangefinder is out of sync. My usual CLA man here in Dublin has not been well in recent times and I have not given him anything to do since last year.

I think I will stick to Leicas, but I might pick up a Contax/Kyiv sometime, just a representative sample. In fact, it might be nice to have two with the different scripts, Roman and Cyrillic, but then it might start getting costly! 

William 

[pippy]

3 hours ago, willeica said:

...I might pick up a Contax/Kyiv sometime, just a representative sample. In fact, it might be nice to have two with the different scripts, Roman and Cyrillic, but then it might start getting costly!...

Unless you are after one of the VERY early (pre-1950) examples the whole spectrum of Kiev 2, 3 and 4 cameras is - in Leica-World terms - ridiculously affordable. The '2' and '2a' are the equivalents of the Contax II (with the 'a' indicating the presence of a PC socket for electronic flash); the '3' and '3a' the built-in selenium-meter equipped Contax III (ditto re: flash). Very confusingly the 4 and 4m are slightly redesigned 3a cameras and the 4a and 4am are redesigned 2a cameras...

As ever a little research goes a very long way. Cameras (and lenses) from the very earliest years are highly collectible and were assembled using genuine Contax parts taken back to Kyiv as War Reparations. Gradually 'domestically manufctured' internals (and lenses) became standard but I have a '52 KNEB 3 which has a DIN film-speed dial indicating that this part of the camera (at the very least) was sourced from the original Contax factory's parts bin. From what I've read the stocks of Contax parts dried-up in around '54 / '55.

If you've already digested all you need to know about the FED-1 cameras here is the link from the same Sovietcams website for the Kiev Contax cameras;

http://www.sovietcams.com/index5de0.html?tmpl_into[0]=index&tmpl_name[0]=m_site_index2&tmpl_into[1]=middle&tmpl_id[1]=167&tmpl_into[2]=menu_4&tmpl_name[2]=m_menu_tree&e_id[2]=24

For what it's worth my own experience has been that, as a generalisation, the build-quality of the cameras made from 1950 until the mid '60s is superior to later cameras after which time QC went, slowly but surely, down the drain. There seems to be a geat deal of evidence to support the story that sometime in the very late 1970's, after one particularly bad QC check by someone very high-up in 'Management', the entire warehouse-full of 4 and 4a camera stocks was dumped as landfill and / or crushed.

I know you have seen this pic before but, at the risk of going way off-topic and just for fun, here is a snap showing ten different versions from the Kiev 2 at top-left to the Kiev 4m at bottom-right. By the way; Kiev cameras were always finished in chrome; they never made any cameras in black-finish. Two of them are shown here;

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Philip.

EDIT : Incidentally the Ukranian/'Roman' marked 3a - mentioned in my earlier post (#791) - is seen here on the second-row down on the right. Note that the third letter of the 'script' name is an 'i' rather than the 'e' seen in the other dual-engraved cameras

Edited August 3, 2022 by pippy

[willeica]

6 hours ago, pippy said:

Unless you are after one of the VERY early (pre-1950) examples the whole spectrum of Kiev 2, 3 and 4 cameras is - in Leica-World terms - ridiculously affordable. The '2' and '2a' are the equivalents of the Contax II (with the 'a' indicating the presence of a PC socket for electronic flash); the '3' and '3a' the built-in selenium-meter equipped Contax III (ditto re: flash). Very confusingly the 4 and 4m are slightly redesigned 3a cameras and the 4a and 4am are redesigned 2a cameras...

As ever a little research goes a very long way. Cameras (and lenses) from the very earliest years are highly collectible and were assembled using genuine Contax parts taken back to Kyiv as War Reparations. Gradually 'domestically manufctured' internals (and lenses) became standard but I have a '52 KNEB 3 which has a DIN film-speed dial indicating that this part of the camera (at the very least) was sourced from the original Contax factory's parts bin. From what I've read the stocks of Contax parts dried-up in around '54 / '55.

If you've already digested all you need to know about the FED-1 cameras here is the link from the same Sovietcams website for the Kiev Contax cameras;

http://www.sovietcams.com/index5de0.html?tmpl_into[0]=index&tmpl_name[0]=m_site_index2&tmpl_into[1]=middle&tmpl_id[1]=167&tmpl_into[2]=menu_4&tmpl_name[2]=m_menu_tree&e_id[2]=24

For what it's worth my own experience has been that, as a generalisation, the build-quality of the cameras made from 1950 until the mid '60s is superior to later cameras after which time QC went, slowly but surely, down the drain. There seems to be a geat deal of evidence to support the story that sometime in the very late 1970's, after one particularly bad QC check by someone very high-up in 'Management', the entire warehouse-full of 4 and 4a camera stocks was dumped as landfill and / or crushed.

I know you have seen this pic before but, at the risk of going way off-topic and just for fun, here is a snap showing ten different versions from the Kiev 2 at top-left to the Kiev 4m at bottom-right. By the way; Kiev cameras were always finished in chrome; they never made any cameras in black-finish. Two of them are shown here;

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Philip.

EDIT : Incidentally the Ukranian/'Roman' marked 3a - mentioned in my earlier post (#791) - is seen here on the second-row down on the right. Note that the third letter of the 'script' name is an 'i' rather than the 'e' seen in the other dual-engraved cameras

An impressive collection. Even with Leicas, I tend to concentrate on particular models and variations eg. I Model As, II Model Ds, IIIcs wartime and postwar, sharkskin etc Then I have a thing about German cameras from the 1930s with Compur shutters. Themed collecting is the only way to go I feel, in order to avoid having a collection that is all over the place. You have certainly found many themes here.

Just a final question that occurs, do you regard these as Soviet, Ukrainian or both ?

William 

[pippy]

2 hours ago, willeica said:

An impressive collection. Even with Leicas, I tend to concentrate on particular models and variations eg. I Model As, II Model Ds, IIIcs wartime and postwar, sharkskin etc Then I have a thing about German cameras from the 1930s with Compur shutters. Themed collecting is the only way to go I feel, in order to avoid having a collection that is all over the place. You have certainly found many themes here.

Just a final question that occurs, do you regard these as Soviet, Ukrainian or both ?

William 

As ever, William, you raise many interesting points and to answer them all even superficially would involve at the very least a '4 Pints of Guinness' afternoon...

First-off I don't even remotely consider myself to be a collector; I have merely acquired a selection of fairly similar objects which hold a certain fascination for me. Funnily enough I do feel a rather strong attraction to the sharkskin Leica offerings but to discuss that affection would involve a fifth pint of the Black Stuff so I'll leave that particular topic right here...

As far as your parting question is concerned? The simplistic answer would be 'Both Soviet and Ukrainian'.

The situation (as I understand it) is too complicated to go into here as it involves questions about the independence - or otherwise - and the status 'enjoyed' by the people of The Ukraine over, specifically, the decades stretching from the end of WW1 to the end of Kiev camera production (and, as we are all acutely aware, beyond). If I may quote from the Sovietcams website when they describe the Ukrainian/Roman marked Kiev 3a cameras alluded to previously in this thread;

"...those very few cameras are made to commemorate the 40th anniversary of Ukraine independency (1918). Following the legend it could be only 40 commemorative copies released in 1958. It's well known, that national question was always delicate and complicated enough in former Soviet Union." (SIC).

Philip.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by pippy

[willeica]

9 hours ago, pippy said:

As ever, William, you raise many interesting points and to answer them all even superficially would involve at the very least a '4 Pints of Guinness' afternoon...

First-off I don't even remotely consider myself to be a collector; I have merely acquired a selection of fairly similar objects which hold a certain fascination for me. Funnily enough I do feel a rather strong attraction to the sharkskin Leica offerings but to discuss that affection would involve a fifth pint of the Black Stuff so I'll leave that particular topic right here...

As far as your parting question is concerned? The simplistic answer would be 'Both Soviet and Ukrainian'.

The situation (as I understand it) is too complicated to go into here as it involves questions about the independence - or otherwise - and the status 'enjoyed' by the people of The Ukraine over, specifically, the decades stretching from the end of WW1 to the end of Kiev camera production (and, as we are all acutely aware, beyond). If I may quote from the Sovietcams website when they describe the Ukrainian/Roman marked Kiev 3a cameras alluded to previously in this thread;

"...those very few cameras are made to commemorate the 40th anniversary of Ukraine independency (1918). Following the legend it could be only 40 commemorative copies released in 1958. It's well known, that national question was always delicate and complicated enough in former Soviet Union." (SIC).

Philip.

 

 

It is interesting that two of the major arms of the Soviet camera industry, FED and Kiev, were based in Ukraine. Both are closed now, but Kiev Arsenal survived up until 2009. I agree with your 'both Soviet and Ukrainian'. The commune in Kharkiv, named after Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky, decided to start producing Leica copies in 1932 at around the time that the Leica II appeared. At that time, the Soviets had cancelled the effects of Western copyrights in the Soviet Union, so there was nothing that Leitz could have done to have stopped the launch within the Soviet Union. Ironically, Leitz Auctions, owned by Leica AG, today auctions very early FEDs for enormous sums. Anyone who follows the Leitz Auctions will know that the first section in the auctions to be fully subscribed with bids is usually that containing early Soviet cameras. An example of what comes around, goes around?

William 

[willeica]

On 7/18/2022 at 11:40 AM, nf3996 said:

A book which I've found gives a useful coverage of the introduction and progresssion of 35mm over the years is the late Roger Hicks 'A History of the 35mm Still Camera', published by the Focal Press in 1984 (ISBN 0 240 51233 2). There are currently four secondhand copies available via Abe.

Alan

A copy of this book arrived with me this morning and, in true Hicks style, it reflects Roger a lot more than the history of the 35mm camera! I met Roger and Frances at the Leica Society AGM in Stratford on Avon in 2014 and, to use a term we have In Ireland, I found Roger to be 'uniquely himself'. I am going to enjoy dipping in and out of the book, but it is most quirky and finding any specific information could be a 'magical mystery tour'. Having looked at the paragraphs on the development of 35mm cassettes there is no clear development path sketched out, just a lot of disconnected obscure detail e.g. the price of post war Shirley Wellard cassettes!

What is really needed is for someone to translate and develop the works of Hartmut Thiele, particularly the book on the Retina. They would not be half as much fun as Roger's book, but they might be better for research.

Thanks for bringing this book to my attention.

William 

Edited August 4, 2022 by willeica

[pippy]

58 minutes ago, willeica said:

...The commune in Kharkiv, named after Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky, decided to start producing Leica copies in 1932 at around the time that the Leica II appeared...

It is interesting to read through Oskar Fricke's account on the 'Birth of the Soviet 35mm Camera Industry'. In it he recounts how the first three FED cameras were completed "on 26th October 1932" but that these cameras were, in fact, copies of the Leica 1 (A). He goes on to posit that;

"The Russians may not yet have known of the Leica II which had been introduced earlier the same year with built-in rangefinder coupled to the lens."

Here is a composite shot of pair of cameras showing one of the very early FED 'Leica 1 (A)' bodies along with an attempt - which was ultimately abandoned - to finish the production FED-1 'Leica II' cameras in black lacquer;

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The whole article offers a fascinating insight into the efforts made in the commune and includes a section dedicated to the "Komandirskij" FED cameras. If you are not familiar with the article I'm sure you will find it to be of some interest;

https://www.fedka.com/Useful_info/Commune_by_Fricke/commune_A.htm

Philip.

Edited August 4, 2022 by pippy

[willeica]

43 minutes ago, pippy said:

It is interesting to read through Oskar Fricke's account on the 'Birth of the Soviet 35mm Camera Industry'. In it he recounts how the first three FED cameras were completed "on 26th October 1932" but that these cameras were, in fact, copies of the Leica 1 (A). He goes on to posit that;

"The Russians may not yet have known of the Leica II which had been introduced earlier the same year with built-in rangefinder coupled to the lens."

Here is a composite shot of pair of cameras showing one of the very early FED 'Leica 1 (A)' bodies along with an attempt - which was ultimately abandoned - to finish the production FED-1 'Leica II' cameras in black lacquer;

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

The whole article offers a fascinating insight into the efforts made in the commune and includes a section dedicated to the "Komandirskij" FED cameras. If you are not familiar with the article I'm sure you will find it to be of some interest;

https://www.fedka.com/Useful_info/Commune_by_Fricke/commune_A.htm

Philip.

Thanks Philip. I saw this excellent piece some time ago, but I had forgotten the link for it. I mentioned that I had been in touch with the author, Oscar Fricke, about the Oskar/Oscar Barnack business. Bill Rosauer (derleicaman) has written an article on that and it will appear in the LHSA Viewfinder magazine along with an updated version (with the auction result) of my article on No105. 

The article you have linked was originally produced for LHSA. Oscar is not coming to the LHSA Conference in Dublin in October, but he tells me that he has an Irish passport as his mother’s father was from Cork and he has cousins in Ireland. I will ask him if he is still interested in FSU cameras and I will see if he is interested in linking up with you. Maybe you have done that already.

William

[pippy]

2 minutes ago, willeica said:

...I mentioned that I had been in touch with the author, Oscar Fricke, about the Oskar/Oscar Barnack business...

Curious, all 'recent' events considered, to see how, subconsciously, I had typed Mr. Fricke's given name with a 'k'!

Sadly there would be nothing I might be able to relate to Mr. Fricke which he does not already know so if he were to contact me the conversation would be very much a one-way-street! But when you do speak with him you might offer him my sincere thanks for his fascinating article.

Philip.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[nitroplait]

Todays acquisition:

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I visited my local camera shop and they had this one just in and CLA'd. How can you say no? We only live once.

[250swb]

6 hours ago, nitroplait said:

Todays acquisition:

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I visited my local camera shop and they had this one just in and CLA'd. How can you say no? We only live once.

Beautiful and well done, Nikon made the best looking SLR's ever.