Is this a fake

[willeica]

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Does anyone have a link to the actual auction listing? This should have been described as a 'fake'. 'Copy' would not be adequate as Leica never produced a camera of this exact style or decorated this way. Unfortunately some auctions engage in bid manipulation in which the house secretly counter-bids to take a bidder up to their maximum bid. I've seen it happen quite a bit I'm afraid. A jump without a counter-bid is even more suspicious, but one would need to see the rules of the auction before deciding on this. 

William

[andybarton]

17 minutes ago, brian said:

Still have Gery Walden as a contact on LinkedIn

I have just looked you up on LinkedIn. I do remember you

 

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[brian]

32 minutes ago, andybarton said:

I have just looked you up on LinkedIn. I do remember you

Thought you may do

 

[andybarton]

Do you use a Mac?

[brian]

1 minute ago, andybarton said:

Do you use a Mac?

Yes I do. As well a Ipad. Why you ask?

[brian]

53 minutes ago, willeica said:

Does anyone have a link to the actual auction listing? This should have been described as a 'fake'. 'Copy' would not be adequate as Leica never produced a camera of this exact style or decorated this way. Unfortunately some auctions engage in bid manipulation in which the house secretly counter-bids to take a bidder up to their maximum bid. I've seen it happen quite a bit I'm afraid. A jump without a counter-bid is even more suspicious, but one would need to see the rules of the auction before deciding on this. 

William

This is a screenshot of the auction house page

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[Anbaric]

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1 hour ago, pippy said:

Just FWIW it's a tarted-up Zorki 1 (Type-E) which was made in either 1955 or '56 (the shutter-speeds changed from those of the Type-D).

Philip.

This is always the main interest in this sort of thread - figuring out exactly which Soviet camera is under the fake engravings. The distinctive gap between the lens and body covering is a bit of a giveaway here. I wonder how many people are truly ignorant of what they are buying, especially in an auction? There's so much information online about the fakes it's hard to avoid it, and this is one of the more outrageous examples, so that bidding pattern is pretty suspicious. But that doesn't excuse an auction house not describing it as what it is.

[andybarton]

9 minutes ago, brian said:

Yes I do. As well a Ipad. Why you ask?

I think I may have come across you pre-Leica, via a Mac Forum based in Birmingham.

[andybarton]

24 minutes ago, brian said:

This is a screenshot of the auction house page

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The estimate is a bit of a give-away.

 

I wonder if someone accidentally hit an extra zero when putting in their maximum bid?

[willeica]

14 minutes ago, brian said:

This is a screenshot of the auction house page

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 I have now found the site after a little search. There is no qualification added to the description which is "AN UNUSUAL LEICA LUFTWAFFE STYLE DAK FI 1423 CAMERA. 14 cm x 7 cm." This is clearly misleading, even with the use of the word 'style'.  

The bidding is also odd as it goes.

Sold for £700

€816

3 bids

BIDDER

BID

INTERNET BID

£700.00

STARTING PRICE

£40.00

There may, however, have been some floor bidding which is not recorded here, with the winning bid of £700 coming via the internet, but anyone who is concerned about this should put a query to the auctioneer who should have kept records of bids received.

I had never heard of this auctioneer before, but I would not be rushing to bid on any cameras they might have for auction in the future.

William

[Anbaric]

https://hannamsauctioneers.com/terms/

'Whilst we seek to describe lots accurately, it may be impractical for us to carry out exhaustive due diligence on each lot. Prospective buyers are given ample opportunities to view and inspect before any sale and they (and any independent experts on their behalf) must satisfy themselves as to the accuracy of any description applied to a lot. Prospective buyers also bid on the understanding that, inevitably, representations or statements by us as to authorship, genuineness, origin, date, age, provenance, condition or estimated selling price involve matters of opinion. We undertake that any such opinion shall be honestly and reasonably held. ... Any lot which proves to be a deliberate forgery may be returned to the Auctioneer within 28 days of the relevant auction provided that it is in the same condition as when bought. If the Auctioneer is satisfied from the evidence presented by you that the lot is a deliberate forgery, the Auctioneer shall refund the price paid by you for the lot including any buyer’s premium. The Auctioneer shall not have any liability for any consequential loss suffered by you (whether as buyer or seller or otherwise) as a result of the lot being a deliberate forgery.'

tl;dr:

This could be any old tat. It's up to you to do your homework, but we'll give your money back if you can prove it's fake.

[willeica]

1 minute ago, Anbaric said:

https://hannamsauctioneers.com/terms/

'Whilst we seek to describe lots accurately, it may be impractical for us to carry out exhaustive due diligence on each lot. Prospective buyers are given ample opportunities to view and inspect before any sale and they (and any independent experts on their behalf) must satisfy themselves as to the accuracy of any description applied to a lot. Prospective buyers also bid on the understanding that, inevitably, representations or statements by us as to authorship, genuineness, origin, date, age, provenance, condition or estimated selling price involve matters of opinion. We undertake that any such opinion shall be honestly and reasonably held. ... Any lot which proves to be a deliberate forgery may be returned to the Auctioneer within 28 days of the relevant auction provided that it is in the same condition as when bought. If the Auctioneer is satisfied from the evidence presented by you that the lot is a deliberate forgery, the Auctioneer shall refund the price paid by you for the lot including any buyer’s premium. The Auctioneer shall not have any liability for any consequential loss suffered by you (whether as buyer or seller or otherwise) as a result of the lot being a deliberate forgery.'

tl;dr:

This could be any old tat. It's up to you to do your homework, but we'll give your money back if you can prove it's fake.

The usual 'boiler plate'. To describe this as a 'matter of opinion' is just plain lazy at best or negligent at worst, giving them the benefit of the doubt on the misleading aspect. The statement is, however, per se misleading as it is a clear misdescription. People on this forum would be unlikely to be misled nor would any well versed Leica or vintage camera collector. However, believe it or not, the world is full of people who know nothing about Leicas or any other vintage cameras for that matter. I am a believer in the 'caveat emptor' principle*, but I am also a believer in the principle of 'duty of care' when it comes to customers and , yes, bidders at an auction who are paying a premium are customers.

Not a good day for the auctioneer both before, during and after the auction, I'm afraid.

William 

* I would hold my hand up and say that not everything that I have bought at auction turned out to be what I thought it would be, but in most cases I could have done more checking in advance. Most collectors will know the feeling when that happens. 

[andybarton]

16 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Any lot which proves to be a deliberate forgery may be returned to the Auctioneer within 28 days of the relevant auction provided that it is in the same condition as when bought.

That's what Brian's contact needs to do.

That is a deliberate forgery.

While it might be more difficult to prove if it's an old master painting, a forged Leica is easy to spot, 99% of the time.

[Herr Barnack]

The "eagle" on the top plate looks like a seagull.  🙄

Edited February 24, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[brian]

2 hours ago, willeica said:

The usual 'boiler plate'. To describe this as a 'matter of opinion' is just plain lazy at best or negligent at worst, giving them the benefit of the doubt on the misleading aspect. The statement is, however, per se misleading as it is a clear misdescription. People on this forum would be unlikely to be misled nor would any well versed Leica or vintage camera collector. However, believe it or not, the world is full of people who know nothing about Leicas or any other vintage cameras for that matter. I am a believer in the 'caveat emptor' principle*, but I am also a believer in the principle of 'duty of care' when it comes to customers and , yes, bidders at an auction who are paying a premium are customers.

Not a good day for the auctioneer both before, during and after the auction, I'm afraid.

William 

* I would hold my hand up and say that not everything that I have bought at auction turned out to be what I thought it would be, but in most cases I could have done more checking in advance. Most collectors will know the feeling when that happens. 

I would not buy something of value without checking everything out. I have been caught out a few times but no for anything of value except once and it was something the auctioneer had missed, but I got a refund for everything. I have noticed on a few occasions where bidders have paid silly prices which is obviously worthless in comparison to the price they paid for it

[brian]

2 hours ago, andybarton said:

That's what Brian's contact needs to do.

That is a deliberate forgery.

While it might be more difficult to prove if it's an old master painting, a forged Leica is easy to spot, 99% of the time.

Andy he was not a contact of mine. I am approved by this auction and was looking for timepieces when I happened to see a camera advertised as a Leica. I thought it was a fake immediately, but was interested what price it would fetch. Had it gone for£50- £100, the normal price for a fake but £700 well kind of made me chuckle

[brian]

3 hours ago, andybarton said:

The estimate is a bit of a give-away.

 

I wonder if someone accidentally hit an extra zero when putting in their maximum bid?

Normally not possible. You have to press next bid. Which at that price maybe £50. How one gets around the restriction is to put in an advance bid which can be any price you wish. I think what happened when the price went from £170 to £700 is there had been bidding on another online platform. This auction was doing something that was not accepted by online bidding. Instead of immediately showing the increments they waited until the final price before revealing it on the screen. This means if you see the price as £60 and there are other bids pushing it up to £600 if you happen to press when it was £60 as they are displaying £600 you end up with a £600 item that you never intend to pay so much for.mQuite illegal but this auction house was doing it. I got caught with this once and I spoke to invaluable the company who runs the online platform They warned the auction house, do it again and we will ban you from our platform

[M9reno]

At the only Westlicht auction that I ever attended, I remember a well-known dealer based in Austria jump into the bidding frenzy with a bid that was several (or many) increments higher than anything yet being asked for.  The bid was accepted and went on from there.  I imagine this auction allowed something similar, and (as someone earlier in this thread suggested) the "winner" may have not understood that the item would go straight to that price, unlike on ebay where it always goes in increments.

[Pyrogallol]

I have bought from a number of “real” auctions in the past and never seen the bidding jump like that, I think it would be against all the rules that UK auction houses abide by. Sounds as if the intermediate bids have not been displayed.

i was at one auction, a rural county town auction house, when an oil painting, dark looking head and shoulders portrait of a man came up, the bidding started at about £400 and crept up to £1000 with room and internet bidding. Then it just kept going a hundred a time to start with, then bigger bids as the price went up, then up and up, then the room went quiet as the internet dropped out leaving two or three phone bidders. I forget where it finally got to but it was around £30000. As the hammer came down and the tension broke people in the room started clapping.

 

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[willeica]

54 minutes ago, brian said:

Normally not possible. You have to press next bid. Which at that price maybe £50. How one gets around the restriction is to put in an advance bid which can be any price you wish. I think what happened when the price went from £170 to £700 is there had been bidding on another online platform. This auction was doing something that was not accepted by online bidding. Instead of immediately showing the increments they waited until the final price before revealing it on the screen. This means if you see the price as £60 and there are other bids pushing it up to £600 if you happen to press when it was £60 as they are displaying £600 you end up with a £600 item that you never intend to pay so much for.mQuite illegal but this auction house was doing it. I got caught with this once and I spoke to invaluable the company who runs the online platform They warned the auction house, do it again and we will ban you from our platform

On most British auctions you will hear the auctioneer say where the bids are coming from and identify the platform and, to be fair, most of them do this quite well. On the big international auctions you will see an online list of all the bids and where they are coming from and, again, this is quite transparent, but what is not transparent is where some of those bids are coming from the auctioneer or persons commissioned by the auctioneer. I have seen examples of that and certainly you have to be suspicious when bids appear and run right up to your maximum bid and then stop just below that and, again, I have seen that.

 

38 minutes ago, M9reno said:

At the only Westlicht auction that I ever attended, I remember a well-known dealer based in Austria jump into the bidding frenzy with a bid that was several (or many) increments higher than anything yet being asked for.  The bid was accepted and went on from there.  I imagine this auction allowed something similar, and (as someone earlier in this thread suggested) the "winner" may have not understood that the item would go straight to that price, unlike on ebay where it always goes in increments.

The norm at most well run auctions is bidding in increments, say in 10s up to 500, 50 thereafter and then 100 beyond 1,000 and so on. This should be set out in the auction rules. This is not always the same and it is worth checking out if you are going to be bidding. Westlicht/Leitz has always had bidding in increments set out in the auction rules.

The auction house in this case does not appear to have any real camera expertise and my advice has always been to go an auction house with that expertise. 

Here is an article which I wrote about 5 years ago giving advice about participation in online camera auctions. It might not be fully up to date, but the advice it contains is still relevant.

https://www.macfilos.com/2015/10/30/2015-10-29-one-mans-story-online-camera-auctions-and-collecting-classic-leicas/

William