Value of fakes

[willeica]

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3 minutes ago, zeitz said:

After World War II manufacturers could copy any German design legally because the German patents were nullified by the Allies.  Leitz had no legal basis to challenge the copies.  The copies are absolutely legitimate.

The issue of wartime Leicas is interesting because Luigi Cane's book does seem to be flawed.  I have a grey IIIcK that I bought from one of Netopil's associates that I have been assured is a US Army Signal Corps camera even though it is not listed as such by Cane.  I don't know how to represent it if I were ever to sell it because I have no provenance.

Contact Lars about this. He may be able to suggest something. My own guess is that the camera in question was probably not ordered from Leitz, but was 'acquired' during the immediate post war occupation by US Forces.

William

[frame-it]

39 minutes ago, zeitz said:

After World War II manufacturers could copy any German design legally because the German patents were nullified by the Allies.  Leitz had no legal basis to challenge the copies.

not just nullified, they stole those patents, and apparently the Allies passed on many patents from Germany to the Japanese...was reading about the history of my nippon kogaku "sonnar" based lens

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[levegh]

I am glad that I started this thread; the answers have been so interesting and erudite. Thank you.

Stuart

[UliWer]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb frame-it:

not just nullified, they stole those patents, and apparently the Allies passed on many patents from Germany to the Japanese...was reading about the history of my nippon kogaku "sonnar" based lens

I am not sure about this. Other sources say that  patents from Leitz and Zeiss were passed to Japan already during or even before the second war as a  a sign of cooperation between allies during the war. 

The theory that the US "stole" the patents from one of their former foes to give it to another one does not really sound convincing.    

 

 

[willeica]

Some prehistory and background here:

http://cameras.alfredklomp.com/introduction/

And some material on the world of FSU and more modern Russian 'fakes'

http://cameras.alfredklomp.com/fakes/

Note what the author says here about some people liking to collect fakes. In other cases people may buy knowing that they have probably acquired the photographic equivalent of the fake Rolex watches, often found at holiday destinations. What I had been looking for was an indication of something that I read before about the impossibility of enforcing German copyright law in the Soviet Union. I do know that Leica registered patents in the UK and and the US (I have copies of some of these) and perhaps other countries, but probably not in the Soviet Union. Of course, the sale of any camera outside of the Soviet Union/Russia with a false Leica description attached would usually have involved a breach of local consumer protection/trade description legislation as well as a breach of copyright. As for Leica patents being 'stolen' after WWII, by that time the design of the rangefinder in all parts of the world had more or less settled around the Leica design with some variations and had become fairly standardised, just as happened later with SLR design. Also international enforcement of patents was a lot more difficult in those days as the necessary legal treaties and other apparatus did not exist. Patents were largely enforced on a market by market basis. I won't attempt to justify what the victorious 'Allies' might have done except to note that the 'to the victor, the spoils' rule has applied since time immemorial. A lot of Leicas found their way to the US and other countries via military personnel stationed in Germany after World War II. I saw one for sale recently that had belonged to a member of the security detail at the Nuremberg Trials.

William

 

 

[UliWer]

vor 41 Minuten schrieb willeica:

...What I had been looking for was an indication of something that I read before about the impossibility of enforcing German copyright law in the Soviet Union. I do know that Leica registered patents in the UK and and the US (I have copies of some of these) and perhaps other countries, but probably not in the Soviet Union...

International patent law depends on treaties between different states which ensure that a patent acquired in one state will be recognized by another state (or better by another state's courts so that the original patent owner can sue anyone making or distributing copies or fakes), or that patents can be  registered in different countries as you describe it.  

After the revolution in 1917 Russia - and of course the later USSR - cancelled all international treaties concerning patents and copyrights. So they were not obliged any longer to recognize international patents and could produce their own copies of patented products - the FED-copy of the Leica being just one example.   

[willeica]

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30 minutes ago, UliWer said:

International patent law depends on treaties between different states which ensure that a patent acquired in one state will be recognized by another state (or better by another state's courts so that the original patent owner can sue anyone making or distributing copies or fakes), or that patents can be  registered in different countries as you describe it.  

After the revolution in 1917 Russia - and of course the later USSR - cancelled all international treaties concerning patents and copyrights. So they were not obliged any longer to recognize international patents and could produce their own copies of patented products - the FED-copy of the Leica being just one example.   

Thanks. This confirms what I thought was the case. I had read this before, but I had forgotten the details.

William

[jankap]

Am 2.5.2019 um 15:24 schrieb UliWer:

I am not sure about this. Other sources say that  patents from Leitz and Zeiss were passed to Japan already during or even before the second war as a  a sign of cooperation between allies during the war. 

The theory that the US "stole" the patents from one of their former foes to give it to another one does not really sound convincing.    

Last week I found a story about the first voyage of the submarine U180. It went to a meeting with the Japanese submarine I29(?) to exchange documents.

Patents were war trophies.

[derleicaman]

On 5/1/2019 at 6:12 PM, zeitz said:

After World War II manufacturers could copy any German design legally because the German patents were nullified by the Allies.  Leitz had no legal basis to challenge the copies.  The copies are absolutely legitimate.

The issue of wartime Leicas is interesting because Luigi Cane's book does seem to be flawed.  I have a grey IIIcK that I bought from one of Netopil's associates that I have been assured is a US Army Signal Corps camera even though it is not listed as such by Cane.  I don't know how to represent it if I were ever to sell it because I have no provenance.

I had the same thoughts about Luigi's book being flawed, but I think he is drawing a sharp line between German and other armed forces issued items. There is a series of Gray IIIcK cameras that were acquired at the end of the war for the US Signal Corps. This is indicated in the Leitz delivery records which Leica still retains. I would first contact Lars Netopil, if he sold the camera, about this. He should be able to get a photocopy of the page with your camera serial number to establish provenance. You could also contact Leica themselves. Of PM me the serial number. I will be in Wetzlar in two weeks with Jim Lager conduction my tour of Wetzlar. I will be seeing Lars as well and we will be in the Archives with Ms. Monika Bock. I can possibly get you an answer!

I have one of these cameras myself. I think Luigi is differentiating between cameras issued to the German Armed Forces and those not. There were also some silver chrome IIIcK cameras issued to US Signal Corps as well. I had a friend in the Chicago area who was issued one of these in May-June 1945 while in the ETO after the war in Europe had ended. He told me that these cameras were to be used to take new ID photos of the officers in the ETO who would be participating in the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands. Thank God this never happened as they were estimating over 1 million casualties for this invasion.

Edited May 4, 2019 by derleicaman
more info

[Anbaric]

On 4/30/2019 at 3:04 PM, levegh said:

What am I missing? Special Auction Services in UK have a FED in their next auction. The estimate is £40 to £60.  Auction Team Breker also have a FED in their next auction. It is faked as a Leica with Luftwaffe markings. The estimate is 500 to 700 Euros and there is already a bid for 280.

That's an odd one. Even though some people collect these things, and may pay a premium for certain embellishments, why pay that much when you can get one on ebay with your choice of fake military engravings for half the price of the current bid? Sounds like someone doesn't understand what they are bidding on, or they are influenced by that wildly optimistic estimate, or there's something else about this camera that gives it some value. I suppose there's no doubt it's a FED? The estimate seems low for the real thing.

[pico]

2 hours ago, Anbaric said:

That's an odd one. Even though some people collect these things, and may pay a premium for certain embellishments, why pay that much when you can get one on ebay with your choice of fake military engravings for half the price of the current bid?

I think that many of us recall when such frauds were about $29 USD.

My heart goes out to a very large antique dealer here that had a fake Nazi 'leica' in his display case and claimed it to be the real thing. My mate and I saw it and we walked away feeling badly for the seller and any buyer. These fakes find poor fools. Depressing

[frame-it]

On 5/2/2019 at 10:24 PM, UliWer said:

 

The theory that the US "stole" the patents from one of their former foes to give it to another one does not really sound convincing.    

 

 

Passed on After the war, during the post war occupation of Japan, please feel free to research it

 

 

other stuff:

https://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/patents.html

https://newslog.cyberjournal.org/wwii-and-the-theft-of-german-intellectual-property/

 

Edited May 5, 2019 by frame-it

[willeica]

The patent issue is much broader than cameras. Leica copies existed before WWII commenced and they are frankly 'small beer' compared to some of the other items concerned eg rockets, bombs, cars, chemical technology etc. What was happening at that time involved the normalisation of relations between Germany, Italy and Japan with the rest of the world. That happened and all the countries involved on both sides survived and prospered, as did their brands, including Leica. In the case of Leica it was a 'close run thing' ,to quote the Duke of Wellington, as the company was slow to perceive the threat from Japanese made SLRs.

 As Bill (derleicaman) says I had heard that Leica had supplied cameras directly to US occupying forces, but I was not sure what models were involved. It would be interesting if the Leica Archives had details of such cameras. I have heard of many other cases where US military personnel obtained Leicas through 'barter' with members of the German population, both military and non military.

The cameras obtained by US military personnel have nothing to do with the issue of fakes. I have no sympathy whatsoever with antique dealers who acquire fake Leicas, but I would have sympathy with the poor sods that might part with cash having been taken in by such dealers with 'tales of provenance'. My advice to them is never to buy a camera from an antique dealer unless you already know much more about the camera than the antique dealer. Where I come from antique dealers are reputed to know something about furniture and paintings etc but nothing about cameras and... I won't go on. There may be members of this forum who are antique dealers. 

And if you go to Moscow, don't buy a 'Leica' in the shops on Arbat Street.

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William

 

 

[Jerry Attrik]

Mooching, as I do, in E-Bay I saw item 273 3062 6144 a Canon-P.

It looks too shiny and 'new' to be described as "...in well used condition..."

Another copy/fake?

D.Lox

 

[Rick in CO]

On 4/30/2019 at 8:04 AM, levegh said:

What am I missing? Special Auction Services in UK have a FED in their next auction. The estimate is £40 to £60.  Auction Team Breker also have a FED in their next auction. It is faked as a Leica with Luftwaffe markings. The estimate is 500 to 700 Euros and there is already a bid for 280. I would have thought that a FED is a FED is a FED and worth only the estimate that SAS put on it. Are people collecting the fakes? It is difficult to think what to compare to a fake Leica, but how about the awful pretend Bugatti type 35 that I saw recently with MGB engine, suspension and other mechanical parts? Or perhaps the "vintage" Frazer Nash built on the remains of a Volkswagen 'Beetle'? Am I out of step or is it everyone else? Please tell me that none of you will be bidding on the Breker one.

Stuart

I just looked at the auction site.  The camera with a starting bid of 280 Euro has no bids and is described truthfully as a "Leica II Fake Luftwaffe".

However, there is another "fake" camera listed by an auction house as a " WWII German  Luftwaffe Leica Film Camera".

Live Auctioneers lists various auction houses on their web site, some not so well-informed.

I have bought from Auction Team Breker and found them to be well-informed and reputable, it may be that the camera's owner dictated 

     the ridiculously high opening bid and estimate.

 

[willeica]

2 hours ago, Rick in CO said:

I just looked at the auction site.  The camera with a starting bid of 280 Euro has no bids and is described truthfully as a "Leica II Fake Luftwaffe".

However, there is another "fake" camera listed by an auction house as a " WWII German  Luftwaffe Leica Film Camera".

Live Auctioneers lists various auction houses on their web site, some not so well-informed.

I have bought from Auction Team Breker and found them to be well-informed and reputable, it may be that the camera's owner dictated 

     the ridiculously high opening bid and estimate.

 

I know this Auctioneer (SAS) and I have bought some items from them, but I cannot find the auction being discussed here. Is it a past auction? Can someone supply a link?

William

 

[UliWer]

Am 5.5.2019 um 11:20 schrieb willeica:

As Bill (derleicaman) says I had heard that Leica had supplied cameras directly to US occupying forces, but I was not sure what models were involved. It would be interesting if the Leica Archives had details of such cameras. I have heard of many other cases where US military personnel obtained Leicas through 'barter' with members of the German population, both military and non military.

In the first years after the war, i.e. until 1947, when the D-Mark was introduced, the old german "Reichsmark" had no value at all. So other items were used to swap for dollars or coffee or meat etc. on the "black" market. A Leica was a typical item of value which was used in this way. 

On the other hand the first production from Leitz which started immediately after the war was not sold on the German market, since there was nobody who could afford it, or would bother about it. So the complete production was exported. But export was almost impossible since the ways for transport were destroyed. Though there was allied military personell, especially from the US. At the town of Giessen, which is only some 15km away from Wetzlar there was an important American military base. And there was a PX-Store. I have no proof, but I am rather sure that a large quantity of the very first Leitz production after the war went to this PX-Store and could be bought by American soldiers there. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by UliWer

[levegh]

'I know this Auctioneer (SAS) and I have bought some items from them, but I cannot find the auction being discussed here. Is it a past auction? Can someone supply a link?

William'

The FED was in a recent but now completed auction. I mentioned it as an example of the value that a reputable auctioneer put on a FED. The estimate on a FED based fake Leica by Breker seemed to me to be curiously excessive. In my original post, I was asking if the reason was that such fakes are collected and had the value that Breker put on one.  I do not have enough knowledge of FEDs, Leicas or Breker to infer any other reason for the estimate.

Stuart

[willeica]

10 minutes ago, levegh said:

'I know this Auctioneer (SAS) and I have bought some items from them, but I cannot find the auction being discussed here. Is it a past auction? Can someone supply a link?

William'

The FED was in a recent but now completed auction. I mentioned it as an example of the value that a reputable auctioneer put on a FED. The estimate on a FED based fake Leica by Breker seemed to me to be curiously excessive. In my original post, I was asking if the reason was that such fakes are collected and had the value that Breker put on one.  I do not have enough knowledge of FEDs, Leicas or Breker to infer any other reason for the estimate.

Stuart

I have dealt with Breker and found them to be good. I have also bought a lot of items at various auctions, particularly Leica cameras and lenses. The last Breker Auction was on 16th March last and I cannot find the item, to which to which you refer, there. If I could see the listing I might be able to explain it to you. Can you provide a link so that I can see the item? There are many possible reasons as to why an auctioneer might have a high estimate on an item. 

William

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[levegh]

William,

FED/Leica is Lot 129 in auction of 18th May 2019.

Stuart