Film loading trouble in Leica II

[romualdo]

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5 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

Getting tiny shreds of film out of Barnack cameras without disassembly can be a nightmare. A few years ago, I bought a pair of crocodile nose forceps https://www.medisave.co.uk/instrapac-hartman-crocodile-forceps-22cm.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAmrOBBhA0EiwArn3mfPEOadm8ramdrAjRv_dOX0p86hIie8UD-Ykz0arkhTb99l3D_3jpQRoCIvIQAvD_BwE  which can get into the parts of the camera bodies that nothing else will reach. As they have a very smooth and rounded profile, as long as you are careful and very gentle, the risk of damage is low. 

Wilson

Ha!! an essential piece of equipment in the Veterinary world !! I've used those forceps many times

Edited February 18, 2021 by romualdo

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[jerzy]

Am 15.2.2021 um 12:54 schrieb philipus:

after 4-5 exposures the film advance action would become very "tough"

is the problem solved? If not, on base on above sentence I would suspect rewind knob. When loaded film is usually loose in the casette, after few exposures rewind knob will start to rotate when advancing film. Is the rewind knob stiff without the film? If yes you may try following:
- remove the screw
- pull out the knob
- remove the ring, observe orientation up/down. On some older cameras the hole is not exactely in the middle. When mounted upside down rewind goes stiff
- remove the "fork" and wash out old grease if dirty
Assembly in reverse order

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But i noticed something with your camera, not related. What is the serial number, is it below 80xxx?
There is some inconsistency in parts used for the shutter, the axis for the first  (opening) curtain has been replaced but not for the closing. See left picture - upper axis is thicker, typical for the cameras below 80xxx, while the lower one is thinner, like in later cameras. It is not only axis which is different, it is as well the spring. When Leitz was repairing cameras and replaced the shutter they have done it for both curtains simultanously.

And the second thing are the nuts on the axis. On the right picture there is camera from William, with the correct shutter components (thicker axis). Notice the nuts with 2 cutouts only. With later II nuts with 4 cutouts have been introduced, realy 1933 thinner axis and nuts with 6 cutouts. IBased on the status of your camera I suppose that:
- camera was repaired once, maybe converted if this was model I before in the year 1933 or after. During this repair shutter remained unchanged but the nuts with 6 cutouts have been used - they provide better adjustemnt possibilities tthan the ones with 2

- in a later time shutter was repaired and drum/spring for opening curtain has been replaced. I assume that this was not done by Leitz, I would expect them, to replace the whole shutter
But as mentioned - curiosity, but has nothing to do with film transport

[philipus]

Thank you very much Jerzy. No the problem is still there. Because of work I haven't been able to try with my FILCA and IXMOO to see if the height of the canister will affect things. But it's worked with normal film the last ten years I have had it.

I've checked the rewind knob and it is not stiff. It turns easily.

It's ok to be curious The camera is a conversion. I think it was a IC from 1931, no. 62742, which some time was made into a II. Below is a post I made when I had just bought it in 2011 which shows various accessories. The Summitar and the 2,8cm Hektor are both from 1950 so perhaps the conversion was made around then. I bought it from Leicashop but they didn't have more info about its background.

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9 hours ago, jerzy said:

is the problem solved? If not, on base on above sentence I would suspect rewind knob. When loaded film is usually loose in the casette, after few exposures rewind knob will start to rotate when advancing film. Is the rewind knob stiff without the film? If yes you may try following:
- remove the screw
- pull out the knob
- remove the ring, observe orientation up/down. On some older cameras the hole is not exactely in the middle. When mounted upside down rewind goes stiff
- remove the "fork" and wash out old grease if dirty
Assembly in reverse order

But i noticed something with your camera, not related. What is the serial number, is it below 80xxx?
There is some inconsistency in parts used for the shutter, the axis for the first  (opening) curtain has been replaced but not for the closing. See left picture - upper axis is thicker, typical for the cameras below 80xxx, while the lower one is thinner, like in later cameras. It is not only axis which is different, it is as well the spring. When Leitz was repairing cameras and replaced the shutter they have done it for both curtains simultanously.

And the second thing are the nuts on the axis. On the right picture there is camera from William, with the correct shutter components (thicker axis). Notice the nuts with 2 cutouts only. With later II nuts with 4 cutouts have been introduced, realy 1933 thinner axis and nuts with 6 cutouts. IBased on the status of your camera I suppose that:
- camera was repaired once, maybe converted if this was model I before in the year 1933 or after. During this repair shutter remained unchanged but the nuts with 6 cutouts have been used - they provide better adjustemnt possibilities tthan the ones with 2

- in a later time shutter was repaired and drum/spring for opening curtain has been replaced. I assume that this was not done by Leitz, I would expect them, to replace the whole shutter
But as mentioned - curiosity, but has nothing to do with film transport

[jerzy]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb philipus:

I've checked the rewind knob and it is not stiff. It turns easily

pitty 🙂, I thought we will have simple solution for your problem. Still I believe thatr the problem is around canister/rewind axis/bottom cover.When you will have time you may check following - load film and wind as long as it will advance easily, lose the film in canister by rotating rewind knob in oipposite direction. Or, sacrifying oine film, advance film without bottom cover.
Thx for posting photo of your camera, I missed it in the other thread. I love these clak paint/chrome conversion! Mine is not far away from your originally but a different model now

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But now I am confused even more with your Leica - many details indicate postwar conversion as you wrote (matt film counter disc and release button, release button with dot, body shell from III with postwar vulcanite, etc) but why did Leitz messed with shutter not having it fully replaced? If you are interested in the history you may reach out to Leica Archive, they might have as well records about repair dates.
Engravings on top plate (arrows, R, A) are still filled with Bismuth, I suppose, top cover is white paint. Do you have a notch on rewind lever like on left photo? Is there a screw like on the right photo?

And Ambro has right - yes, I would like to have your camera in my hands 🙂

[wlaidlaw]

If a shutter collar is required, Nobbysparrow on eBay sells these from Japan at reasonable cost and sends them airmail. 

Wilson

[philipus]

That's a lovely looking camera Jerzy, and very close in serial too. I also find conversions fascinating. It – the individuality of conversions – is what drew me to this camera in the first place. Well that, and the chrome-black combination which I find much more beautiful than nickel-black. 

I've checked with a roll and it is as you say, if I loosen the tension the film advance is much easier. At the beginning of the roll it's necessary to loosen the tension after around 5 frames, but further through the roll it has to be done every 2-3 frames and towards the very end after every frame.

What could have caused this? I don't recognise this from before. As I mentioned earlier without film in the camera the rewind knob turns quite easily. There's a slight resistance, but not much, which I assume is because otherwise the knob would simply spin back due to the tension in the film roll.

My camera doesn't have that notch on the rewind lever or that extra screw. Here's how it looks.

Edit: What is the Leica Archive?

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35 minutes ago, jerzy said:

pitty 🙂, I thought we will have simple solution for your problem. Still I believe thatr the problem is around canister/rewind axis/bottom cover.When you will have time you may check following - load film and wind as long as it will advance easily, lose the film in canister by rotating rewind knob in oipposite direction. Or, sacrifying oine film, advance film without bottom cover.
Thx for posting photo of your camera, I missed it in the other thread. I love these clak paint/chrome conversion! Mine is not far away from your originally but a different model now

But now I am confused even more with your Leica - many details indicate postwar conversion as you wrote (matt film counter disc and release button, release button with dot, body shell from III with postwar vulcanite, etc) but why did Leitz messed with shutter not having it fully replaced? If you are interested in the history you may reach out to Leica Archive, they might have as well records about repair dates.
Engravings on top plate (arrows, R, A) are still filled with Bismuth, I suppose, top cover is white paint. Do you have a notch on rewind lever like on left photo? Is there a screw like on the right photo?

And Ambro has right - yes, I would like to have your camera in my hands 🙂

Edited February 19, 2021 by philipus

[jerzy]

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thx, everything, except one curtain drum is consistent with early postwar conversion, event the curtain brake  - to be found in some conversion and few postwar IIIa only.....

[jerzy]

sorry, I was too fast replying...
yes, there is a notch on rewind lever of your camera and this is OK. As well missing screw holding the frame to the body shell. This means that as well the frame has been renewed during conversion and this is correct. But why not this one shutter drum? Strange.....

Back to original problem - we know already where to look at, film travels correctly, there is no obstacle. It is the canister, or better to say spool in the canister being pressed by bottom cover what prevents the spool to rotate freely. Could there be anything that prevent canister to go fully inside? I do not see anything in film chamber what could cause it but you may check it when the film is loaded, wound 2 frames (so that you have full film width in the film frame). If you remove the lens, set time to Z and check if you see perforation in the upper part of frame.
If you have another II/III you may swap the bottom cover to chek, but to be honest cannot imagine how the bottom cover could cause it. If anything else comes to my mind I'll come back

[jerzy]

Leica Archive - I believe that William (willleica) has a contact. Years ago I contacted customer service to provide me information, but this is years ago...

[Ambro51]

You shouldn’t have to “release tension”, you didn’t remember incorrectly.  Lots of words here,  tough to nail what IS most likely something trivial in nature without taking the camera in hand.  It’s a nice camera that probably could use a normal CLA, which in turn should uncover the glitch.  

Edited February 19, 2021 by Ambro51

[philipus]

Just an update. I have now tried this, with one of those adhesive felt feet that one can put under chairs etc. When I wind a film with this felt washer installed the advance has some resistance to it. It is not as smooth as it is with my M cameras. I seem to remember from before that the film advance was easier/smoother on the Leica II, almost as easy as on the film Ms.

The other thing I notice is that the film perforations immediately hit the teeth of the film advance wheel. In my previous testing the last few days it's always taken a few frames before the perforations have ended up where they're supposed to go. Oddly enough, this was never a problem before so I'm at a loss re. what might have changed.

 

On 2/16/2021 at 12:36 AM, madNbad said:

This may have been suggested but have you tried a thin washer under the film cassette to make up the difference between a modern cassette and the one the camera was originally designed for?  

[madNbad]

Could it be some film chips from the torn leaders are causing the problem? Lifting the cassette gave some improvement but not the cure you were expecting. It may be time for someone with actual tools and experience to take a look. Good luck, it certainly is a gorgeous little camera.

[kellykingi]

@philipus I realise this is quite an old post but I am wondering if you managed to solve this issue as I am experiencing the same problem. I have only had my Leica ii for a couple of weeks and have managed to load three rolls of Kodak Gold without any issues, but when trying to load Ilford HP5 I have the same issue. First advance is perfect but second advance the advance knob gets tighter when forwarding and then the film gives way. Reversing and removing the film I can see the film sprocket is slightly damaged approximately 8cm from the beginning of the film. I thought perhaps the issue was due to the modern film housing so I might go and purchase some more film tomorrow and measure the differences between two brands of film. Any advice in this matter would be really appreciated if you see this comment. - Thanks Kelly

[Anbaric]

5 hours ago, kellykingi said:

@philipus I realise this is quite an old post but I am wondering if you managed to solve this issue as I am experiencing the same problem. I have only had my Leica ii for a couple of weeks and have managed to load three rolls of Kodak Gold without any issues, but when trying to load Ilford HP5 I have the same issue. First advance is perfect but second advance the advance knob gets tighter when forwarding and then the film gives way. Reversing and removing the film I can see the film sprocket is slightly damaged approximately 8cm from the beginning of the film. I thought perhaps the issue was due to the modern film housing so I might go and purchase some more film tomorrow and measure the differences between two brands of film. Any advice in this matter would be really appreciated if you see this comment. - Thanks Kelly

Are you trimming the leader first?

[kellykingi]

23 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Are you trimming the leader first?

Yes I have been measuring out 10cm and cutting a smooth curve like the template guide.

[Anbaric]

13 minutes ago, kellykingi said:

Yes I have been measuring out 10cm and cutting a smooth curve like the template guide.

I've not heard of problems with specific film brands (the cassettes are pretty standardised). My guess would be either a one-off misload, or some film chips somewhere in the mechanism that are messing with things, or (if it keeps happening) a camera that needs servicing. Make sure the tip of the leader is fully pushed into the clip on the take-up spool (check for film chips there) and that the spool and film are pushed all the way down into the camera with no obstructions.

[kellykingi]

46 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

I've not heard of problems with specific film brands (the cassettes are pretty standardised). My guess would be either a one-off misload, or some film chips somewhere in the mechanism that are messing with things, or (if it keeps happening) a camera that needs servicing. Make sure the tip of the leader is fully pushed into the clip on the take-up spool (check for film chips there) and that the spool and film are pushed all the way down into the camera with no obstructions.

Thanks for the advice. I’m guessing I would need to pull the camera apart to check for film chips? 

[Anbaric]

48 minutes ago, kellykingi said:

Thanks for the advice. I’m guessing I would need to pull the camera apart to check for film chips? 

I would leave that to the professionals, but you can check if there's anything obvious in the accessible areas, like the spool clip. If not, I would check the mechanism is running smoothly when empty, then try another film (or re-trim the leader on your roll of HP5) carefully following the instructions (I think the later IIIf manual has the clearest directions) and stopping if you feel undue resistance:

https://www.cameramanuals.org/leica_pdf/leica_if_iif_iiif.pdf

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Hallo,

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[wlaidlaw]

I bought a pair of Hartmann Alligator forceps for getting small shreds of film out of Barnack Leicas without taking them apart. The smallest size with the long nose is the one you need. 

Wilson

 

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[kellykingi]

3 hours ago, Anbaric said:

I would leave that to the professionals, but you can check if there's anything obvious in the accessible areas, like the spool clip. If not, I would check the mechanism is running smoothly when empty, then try another film (or re-trim the leader on your roll of HP5) carefully following the instructions (I think the later IIIf manual has the clearest directions) and stopping if you feel undue resistance:

https://www.cameramanuals.org/leica_pdf/leica_if_iif_iiif.pdf

Yes I'm nervous loading the film let alone opening up the camera!  Yes it appears to be running smooth and believe it or not a tried 6-7 attempts on two rolls of HP5 with the same wind on issue and because the film was cut so many times I decided to use the Kodak Gold I had left and it roll on without a hitch. I'll DL the IIIf manual and follow it to a tee and see if I can get the HP on perhaps later this week when I've finished shooting the roll that's currently loaded.