Film loading trouble in Leica II

[philipus]

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I'm having trouble loading film in my Leica II. It doesn't matter if I use a nicely cut long leader or the "trick" of using a card and a normal leader. 

Since I'm unfamiliar with the inside of the camera it's a bit difficult to know exactly what goes wrong.

What I believe happens is that when the full-width part of the film (i.e. where the leader widens to meet the edge of the film) exits the film roll it catches on something. This causes the film to stop. If I continue to turn the film advance knob the teeth on the advance roller will destroy the perforations because the film is stuck.

At least I think the block is where the widest part of the leader/film edge comes out of the roll. I've tried with a roll and that part (where the leader meets the edge) looked a bit dented.

Is it service time for this 90-year-old or something I might be able to fix myself? I'd be happy to have it serviced but I thought I'd ask if anyone has encountered this and might know of a simple solution.

Thank you in advance

Philip

[oldwino]

When I load mine, I always try to have about 2 sprocket holes worth of "wide" out of the cassette. I've not had an issue with the film catching on the leading edge.

It's possible that there might be an old piece of film of something caught up in there? 

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[Reini]

Is the film far enough in the body? Does the film transport roller turn when pulling?
This can be seen when the camera is open.
 

[Ambro51]

I’m not sure from your post if this is the First time you have loaded film in this particular camera, or it’s a problem which has happened.   The film path can as others said be blocked by a film fragment. Unscrew the lens and set the shutter for bulb or time and take a look.  If you’ve never run film through it and the path is blocked....poor reassembly after “cleaning” can leave the pressure plate out of its position.  Not at all obvious until you try to get film in.  Just a thought, as I’ve had that happen.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Ambro51

[willeica]

4 hours ago, philipus said:

I'm having trouble loading film in my Leica II. It doesn't matter if I use a nicely cut long leader or the "trick" of using a card and a normal leader. 

Since I'm unfamiliar with the inside of the camera it's a bit difficult to know exactly what goes wrong.

What I believe happens is that when the full-width part of the film (i.e. where the leader widens to meet the edge of the film) exits the film roll it catches on something. This causes the film to stop. If I continue to turn the film advance knob the teeth on the advance roller will destroy the perforations because the film is stuck.

At least I think the block is where the widest part of the leader/film edge comes out of the roll. I've tried with a roll and that part (where the leader meets the edge) looked a bit dented.

Is it service time for this 90-year-old or something I might be able to fix myself? I'd be happy to have it serviced but I thought I'd ask if anyone has encountered this and might know of a simple solution.

Thank you in advance

Philip

Ambro's suggestion of checking the pressure plate is a good one. I always leave two sprockets outside on the full width part. I also check that the sprockets are moving the film at the wind end before I close the camera. I would suggest that you should sacrifice a frame or two to check things out and if you cannot see anything obvious, it is time to call in a service person who can remove the wind and shutter gear from the casing.

William 

[Anbaric]

If you don't find an obvious problem as above, and you haven't already seen this, then I would try loading exactly as described in the IIIf manual (p28-32):

https://www.cameramanuals.org/leica_pdf/leica_if_iif_iiif.pdf

The profile should match that shown the the illustration, with around 23 'unpaired' sprocket holes in the narrow section, and 2 'paired' holes in the full-width section protruding from the cassette. Take care to cut between, not through, the sprocket holes. As William suggests, it's worth wasting a few frames with the camera open to see how the film is feeding through.

One less likely possibility - can you confirm that your camera is fitted with the 'V2 lock', not the older pattern 'V1 lock' as shown in the illustration on p11 of the IIIa manual?:

https://www.cameramanuals.org/leica_pdf/leica_iiia.pdf

[philipus]

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Thank you, I am very grateful for your replies. 

I don't see anything stuck where the widest part of the film passes. I've used the camera for years, and although I haven't used it during the last few months I don't recall that it has been difficult to advance the film like this before. All mechanics seem to be working fine and the film roller does turn and pulls the film.

I did some further testing with another roll which I cut exactly as the manual indicates. I loaded it several times and could advance it. But I noticed an interesting thing. Each time after 4-5 exposures the film advance action would become very "tough", the advance knob would become very difficult to turn, to the point that I feared that the film roller's teeth would damage the film.

Thinking a bit further, I believe this is the problem, and not what I wrote earlier that the widest part of the film would catch somewhere.

There's nothing wrong with the roll I loaded so the film must be getting stuck somewhere on its way from the roll to the take-up spool. Could that indicate that the pressure plate is a bit off and pushes against the film? But why would it only happen after a few exposures and not immediately?

Btw this is how the camera looks, is it V1 or V2?

Cheers

Philip

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On 2/13/2021 at 6:25 PM, oldwino said:

When I load mine, I always try to have about 2 sprocket holes worth of "wide" out of the cassette. I've not had an issue with the film catching on the leading edge.

It's possible that there might be an old piece of film of something caught up in there? 

 

On 2/13/2021 at 7:03 PM, Reini said:

Is the film far enough in the body? Does the film transport roller turn when pulling?
This can be seen when the camera is open.
 

 

On 2/13/2021 at 7:42 PM, Ambro51 said:

I’m not sure from your post if this is the First time you have loaded film in this particular camera, or it’s a problem which has happened.   The film path can as others said be blocked by a film fragment. Unscrew the lens and set the shutter for bulb or time and take a look.  If you’ve never run film through it and the path is blocked....poor reassembly after “cleaning” can leave the pressure plate out of its position.  Not at all obvious until you try to get film in.  Just a thought, as I’ve had that happen.

 

On 2/13/2021 at 10:47 PM, willeica said:

Ambro's suggestion of checking the pressure plate is a good one. I always leave two sprockets outside on the full width part. I also check that the sprockets are moving the film at the wind end before I close the camera. I would suggest that you should sacrifice a frame or two to check things out and if you cannot see anything obvious, it is time to call in a service person who can remove the wind and shutter gear from the casing.

William 

 

21 hours ago, Anbaric said:

If you don't find an obvious problem as above, and you haven't already seen this, then I would try loading exactly as described in the IIIf manual (p28-32):

https://www.cameramanuals.org/leica_pdf/leica_if_iif_iiif.pdf

The profile should match that shown the the illustration, with around 23 'unpaired' sprocket holes in the narrow section, and 2 'paired' holes in the full-width section protruding from the cassette. Take care to cut between, not through, the sprocket holes. As William suggests, it's worth wasting a few frames with the camera open to see how the film is feeding through.

One less likely possibility - can you confirm that your camera is fitted with the 'V2 lock', not the older pattern 'V1 lock' as shown in the illustration on p11 of the IIIa manual?:

https://www.cameramanuals.org/leica_pdf/leica_iiia.pdf

 

[willeica]

Your film lock looks to be a V2. You would not get a modern cassette in with the first version

The first version is as follows:

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

William

 

 

[willeica]

The second version is like this.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Have you checked the sprockets? Also the effect of the rewind lever. Turning it to R should free the sprockets up to spin, whereas when it is in advance the sprockets work to cock the shutter. If there is nothing obvious you really need to hand over the camera to an expert.

William

 

[Ambro51]

Well you have succeeded in confusing a lot of people here.   Here’s a simple thing I’d like you to try:      Insert the end of a business card fully into the middle of the “loading track”, and run that back and forth in that “slot” from one side to the other.    It Should feel No obstructions.    Try that.  •••••Time to look at the EZ stuff  first•••.  What type film are you having difficulties with?  Some, like Ultrafine are on thin delicate bases which Will tear out sprockets if the going gets rough.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Ambro51

[philipus]

Thank you William. This camera was originally a Leica IA from 1931 which was upgraded to a Leica II around 1950.

2 hours ago, willeica said:

The second version is like this.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Have you checked the sprockets? Also the effect of the rewind lever. Turning it to R should free the sprockets up to spin, whereas when it is in advance the sprockets work to cock the shutter. If there is nothing obvious you really need to hand over the camera to an expert.

William

 

Ok, well that was certainly not my intention, though I'm not entirely sure how I unwittingly managed to do that. I only tried to describe the problem as best I could.

I have so far tried with Kodak Double-X (5222) and Kodak Ektachrome slide duplicating film 5071. They happened to be what I had handy. These emulsions aren't particularly thin but at least the Double-X had torn sprockets as a result.

If I insert a business card in the middle, the first thing I feel (as I push it down) is the pressure plate moving towards the back of the camera to make room for the card. Then, at about 1cm from the bottom I feel a slight resistance, past which it is possible to push the card.

If I move the card from side to side I feel that the pressure plate pushes against it, meaning that the card isn't moving entirely unhindered.

 

9 minutes ago, Ambro51 said:

Well you have succeeded in confusing a lot of people here.   Here’s a simple thing I’d like you to try:      Insert the end of a business card fully into the middle of the “loading track”, and run that back and forth in that “slot” from one side to the other.    It Should feel No obstructions.    Try that.  •••••Time to look at the EZ stuff  first•••.  What type film are you having difficulties with?  Some, like Ultrafine are on thin delicate bases which Will tear out sprockets if the going gets rough.

 

[willeica]

1 hour ago, philipus said:

Thank you William. This camera was originally a Leica IA from 1931 which was upgraded to a Leica II around 1950.

Ok, well that was certainly not my intention, though I'm not entirely sure how I unwittingly managed to do that. I only tried to describe the problem as best I could.

I have so far tried with Kodak Double-X (5222) and Kodak Ektachrome slide duplicating film 5071. They happened to be what I had handy. These emulsions aren't particularly thin but at least the Double-X had torn sprockets as a result.

If I insert a business card in the middle, the first thing I feel (as I push it down) is the pressure plate moving towards the back of the camera to make room for the card. Then, at about 1cm from the bottom I feel a slight resistance, past which it is possible to push the card.

If I move the card from side to side I feel that the pressure plate pushes against it, meaning that the card isn't moving entirely unhindered.

 

 

If you put the shutter on Z and keep it pressed you should be able to see the pressure plate and judge if it is straight. You can also see the business card if you are using one.

William

[Ambro51]

This plate sits within a like shaped recess, and is “sprung” by two flat springs at both ends.  The plate Is thin, it Can be cocked, but that really doesn’t happen as a rule if it’s in position and the camera Not taken apart.   When the front screws, lens flange,  top screws are removed. the “guts” pull out for servicing.  The pressure plate is physically not connected to either part, rather it is placed into its recess correctly as the “guts” are slid back in.  If it’s cocked, and one part overrides the recess....it will all Still slide back in but the film path is now blocked.  

Edited February 15, 2021 by Ambro51

[philipus]

Thank you both very much for your explanations. I'll send it for service, I think. Just to make sure it can pass 100 years without too much trouble. Thanks again.

2 hours ago, willeica said:

If you put the shutter on Z and keep it pressed you should be able to see the pressure plate and judge if it is straight. You can also see the business card if you are using one.

William

 

2 hours ago, Ambro51 said:

This plate sits within a like shaped recess, and is “sprung” by two flat springs at both ends.  The plate Is thin, it Can be cocked, but that really doesn’t happen as a rule if it’s in position and the camera Not taken apart.   When the front screws, lens flange,  top screws are removed. the “guts” pull out for servicing.  The pressure plate is physically not connected to either part, rather it is placed into its recess correctly as the “guts” are slid back in.  If it’s cocked, and one part overrides the recess....it will all Still slide back in but the film path is now blocked.  

 

[madNbad]

This may have been suggested but have you tried a thin washer under the film cassette to make up the difference between a modern cassette and the one the camera was originally designed for?  

[Ambro51]

.....looks like 10 months at a tech will solve this little glitch.   Good Luck 

[philipus]

Thank you, no I didn't know that could be an option.

17 hours ago, madNbad said:

This may have been suggested but have you tried a thin washer under the film cassette to make up the difference between a modern cassette and the one the camera was originally designed for?  

Thanks, but I certainly hope it will take less than that.

16 hours ago, Ambro51 said:

.....looks like 10 months at a tech will solve this little glitch.   Good Luck 

[madNbad]

Phillip,

Try this thread from RFF: https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120930&highlight=43.6mm

[wlaidlaw]

Getting tiny shreds of film out of Barnack cameras without disassembly can be a nightmare. A few years ago, I bought a pair of crocodile nose forceps https://www.medisave.co.uk/instrapac-hartman-crocodile-forceps-22cm.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAmrOBBhA0EiwArn3mfPEOadm8ramdrAjRv_dOX0p86hIie8UD-Ykz0arkhTb99l3D_3jpQRoCIvIQAvD_BwE  which can get into the parts of the camera bodies that nothing else will reach. As they have a very smooth and rounded profile, as long as you are careful and very gentle, the risk of damage is low. 

Wilson

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[Ambro51]

I think everyone commenting on this thread would just Love to get their hands on that camera for a few minutes.