SL2-S - odd IBIS behavior with 75mm summicron-sl

[Daniel C.1975]

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Hi all, 

 

first I thought it's me, but I think there is a glitch with the IBIS-System, the 75mm summicron-sl and the shutter at 1/160s shutter speed. 

 

Normally I work in A-Mode and with the SL2-s, in contrary to the M10P, also most of the time in Auto-Iso. The preferred shutter speed which the SL2-S chooses in this setup at 75mm is 1/160s . 

 

So with IBIS = ON, with the 75mm and 1/160s shutter speed I quite often have a very slightly blurred picture (minuscule double-lines)- not always, but regular. 

 

So I've just tested the set-up, to support my odd feeling. 

- ISO400, f2, 1/160s, IBIS = ON, mechanical shutter:  slight double lines

- ISO400, f2, 1/160s, IBIS = OFF, mechanical shutter:  perfectly sharp

- ISO400, f2, 1/160s, IBIS = ON, electronic shutter:  perfectly sharp

- ISO800, f2, 1/320s, IBIS = ON, mechanical shutter:  perfectly sharp

- ISO200, f2, 1/80s, IBIS = ON, mechanical shutter:  slight double lines (interestingly, the double lines are in a different direction) --> see screenshot compared with 1/160s

- ISO100, f2, 1/40s, IBIS = ON, mechanical shutter:  very sharp, but not perfect --> see screenshot compared with 1/80s

 

So it seems, that there is a interference of the mechanical shutter with the IBIS-System at 75mm, I do not see that behavior at 35mm. 

 

One can work around it, but it is annoying. What do you guys think?

 

For sure I will give Leica a call next week to get some more information. 

 

Cheers

Daniel

EDIT: Tried to get this behavior with all sorts of shutter speeds with the 35 summicron-sl - no chance, so it seems for me to be resonance or firmware issue with particular frequencies at 75mm

 

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Edited February 6, 2021 by Daniel C.1975

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[toyfel]

Thanks for posting this. I`d agree with you that a mechanical resonance effect of the IBIS assembly triggered by mechanical shutter vibration seems a logical explanation. If you have a 75mm M-mount lens and adapter, I`d test that too. I am not a mechanical engineer, but I could imagine that in particularly unfortunate circumstances the whole thing might even be influenced by temperature, which could mean it crops up at different shutter speeds. This is wild speculation, of course. It will be interesting to hear Leica`s response.  

[Daniel C.1975]

Thanks for your feedback. I am in fact a mechanical engineer

[jplomley]

I've noticed similar on the SL2. IBIS actually degrades the image in combination with the mechanical shutter. I only activates IBIS now when I am below 1/60th and will elect to use electronic shutter when feasible. I notice the effect on both my 35 and 75 APO L lenses.

[Daniel C.1975]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. 

Seems, that there is some SW to do for Leica. 

Just checked with my 90mm Elmarit - far less pronounced to non existent. 

 

Cheers

Daniel

[ravinj]

Interesting thread. Are the samples taken hand-held? 

[Daniel C.1975]

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Yes, all handheld. 

[Stuart Richardson]

I would imagine it is very hard to control for all the variables. My experience with stabilization is that it is best treated as something that more often than not is a net positive, but can also have a negative influence on photos. I noticed that some long exposures at night showed odd star trails, and realized it was from the stabilization being slightly wobbly. Even then Leica says it is ok to leave it on while on a tripod (or at least that is what they told me), I think it is best left off. I think if the camera itself is being handheld, more often than not the motion of your hand tremors etc will be a lot greater than the movement of the IBIS, but on a tripod or in the scenario you mention, the fact that the sensor is moving target means that occasionally it will work against you rather than for you. I have noticed effects like the ones you show on photos that should be sharp (i.e. shot at high shutter speeds). The other thing I occasionally encounter is that the sharpness across the field is not entirely even, as one might normally expect. My suspicion is that in cases where the yaw or pitch of the sensor is moving, you can basically take the sensor out of plane parallel from the lens focal plane, leading to undesirable effects. They are small, but we are often talking wide apertures with long lenses at very high resolution, and these tiny adjustments can be visible.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[SrMi]

Thank you for sharing the test. Have you reported it to Leica?

The blur is likely caused by interaction of IBIS and shutter shock. I wish Leica would implement EFCS in their cameras.

[Sandmann]

The Problem looks familiar to me. My SL2 has given me a lot of headaches. I often have double contours, especially at 1/160, but with all lenses. I have now sent the camera to Leica for the second time, but have not yet received any results.
I think the camera has a problem with the stabilizer. It's sometimes crazy, recordings at 1 / 10s are sharp, at 1 / 160s they are blurred.

I am waiting for the results from Wetzlar

[jplomley]

1 hour ago, Sandmann said:

The Problem looks familiar to me. My SL2 has given me a lot of headaches. I often have double contours, especially at 1/160, but with all lenses. I have now sent the camera to Leica for the second time, but have not yet received any results.
I think the camera has a problem with the stabilizer. It's sometimes crazy, recordings at 1 / 10s are sharp, at 1 / 160s they are blurred.

I am waiting for the results from Wetzlar

Likewise, plus my play button is stuck. Takes a lot of pressure to get it to work. Loosens up a bit, and then gets stuck when not using for awhile. Disappointed in this level of quality control. Is this a Panasonic or Leica issue???? I've not sent mine in to Leica just yet due to the pandemic and New Jersey essentially being shut down. But I may have no choice if I want these issues resolved before the spring (and even that is wishful thinking).

[toyfel]

1 hour ago, jplomley said:

Likewise, plus my play button is stuck. Takes a lot of pressure to get it to work. Loosens up a bit, and then gets stuck when not using for awhile. Disappointed in this level of quality control. Is this a Panasonic or Leica issue???? I've not sent mine in to Leica just yet due to the pandemic and New Jersey essentially being shut down. But I may have no choice if I want these issues resolved before the spring (and even that is wishful thinking).

That surely is a frustrating situation for you. Let's hope Leica will sort out the issue with @Sandmann's SL2 rather sooner than later. That at least would show that they are  capable of fixing the problem. I don't think it's a Panasonic issue. Even if parts of the IBIS system are supplied by Panasonic, it very much looks like the combination of IBIS with the Leica shutter are causing the problems. To my knowledge there are no reports of a similar problem with Lumix S cameras.

[Stuart Richardson]

I have found similar behavior on the S1 and A7RII. If you look close enough, IBIS is not a panacea. It is a tool that helps with long lenses and short shutter speeds, but it is still not perfect.

[frame-it]

3 hours ago, jplomley said:

Likewise, plus my play button is stuck. Takes a lot of pressure to get it to work. Loosens up a bit, and then gets stuck when not using for awhile.

interesting.. a few people mentioned the same on the SL2 series and M10

[frame-it]

5 hours ago, SrMi said:

I wish Leica would implement EFCS in their cameras.

+1

 

[ZHNL]

I did the similar test long time ago with Panasonic 70-200. Basically mechanical shutter has to be avoided. 

it is not the IBIS problem because E shutter works fine. And in body one works better than lens OIS. 

 

SL2 e shutter actually works better than most sensor out there include SL2-S with fast read out speed. (Also better than Z6, Z7 and A7x A7RX) So, unless I am shooting something moving fast, E shutter default. 

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

I did the similar test long time ago with Panasonic 70-200. Basically mechanical shutter has to be avoided. 

it is not the IBIS problem because E shutter works fine. And in body one works better than lens OIS. 

 

SL2 e shutter actually works better than most sensor out there include SL2-S with fast read out speed. (Also better than Z6, Z7 and A7x A7RX) So, unless I am shooting something moving fast, E shutter default. 

Since the image is sharp with IBIS off and mechanical shutter on, the problem is caused by a combination of IBIS and shutter shock, IMO.

[ZHNL]

8 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Since the image is sharp with IBIS off and mechanical shutter on, the problem is caused by a combination of IBIS and shutter shock, IMO.

But you need see at what shutter speed? I think I am not disagreeing with you but I will just avoid it if it is not trustable. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by ZHNL

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[Chaemono]

Will check later. 

[Slender]

Interesting.... never had this with 24/90 on SL2.... tripod/no tripod, slow/fast....