GFX100S vs SL2/X1D

[Succisa75]

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4 hours ago, Priaptor said:

I hear you. While I love the rangefinder mentality I kind of gave up on it as I got older and my eyesight not quite the same. When I saw this 35 M APO I started drooling. When I asked Jono how it performed on the SL he said he loved it but was not quite sure if he liked it better than the APO SL on the SL2 BUT made the legitimate statement that as an owner of both the SL and M and can use it on both why he would buy (and is) buying the 35mm M APO. My biggest problem with the M APO 35 is that it may lead me back to also buying an M as a second body and a MUCH MORE expensive endeavor. 

This is a guess on my part, but one thing I found interesting is the M 35 APO can now focus down to .03 when using live view. 

When I first read that I just brushed it aside as okay that’s interesting, but thinking more about it, it now makes sense that what we could be getting down the road is an actual EVF M. Technically it’s possible now with a high enough resolution EVF it mimics OVF and you now have all the benefits without having to rely on a Viso Flex and rear screen 
 

 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Succisa75 said:

This is a guess on my part, but one thing I found interesting is the M 35 APO can now focus down to .03 when using live view. 

When I first read that I just brushed it aside as okay that’s interesting, but thinking more about it, it now makes sense that what we could be getting down the road is an actual EVF M. Technically it’s possible now with a high enough resolution EVF it mimics OVF and you now have all the benefits without having to rely on a Viso Flex and rear screen 
 

 

There’s a thread for you...

Jeff

[Mr.Q]

7 hours ago, Jon Warwick said:

It's a good point. Until now, I'd presumed that a larger sized lens (as seen in the SL APOs) was a prerequisite for higher image quality. The MTFs for the SL APOs, for example, were superior to the M 50 APO. But this week my view was turned on its head with the release of the M 35mm APO, which despite its small size has, for all intents and purposes, an MTF that is pretty much bang in line with the incredible SL 35 APO. On the M 10M especially, I'm guessing the M 35mm APSH's performance is presumably impeccable.

So whilst I've moved to the GFX100S for its high resolution away from the SL2 (both with similar sizes and weights), Leica with this M 35 APO has essentially confirmed to me another good reason to why I'm remaining part of the Leica family but sticking to "all things M", ie, IMHO it shows that the small size and weight of the Ms remain pretty much unique, BUT no compromise in image quality is now required for very small and compact lenses, even against its own highest performing SL primes.  That's remarkable really, hats off to the people who designed and built it.

Well said. For me it's the M (and to a lesser degree the Q series) that's keeping me with Leica.  There's still no other camera system that offers a better size-to-performance ratio. The M10-R plus 35 APO is the new p4p king, as they would say in boxing.  Considering that it closely matches the SL2 + 35 APO in IQ, the GFX has become even more compelling as my 'big' system moving forward.

[Alistairm]

The lenses keep me with Leica. 

That said, I’m told my GFX100S and the 80 f/1.7 should be here on Tuesday or Wednesday, so I’ll look forward to playing with them. At some point I’ll have to renationalise, but after playing the Leica and Hasselblad games the Fuji pricing all of a sudden seems extremely reasonable. 

[frame-it]

may as well drop this in for the OP who seems to have disappeared 😇:

Canon R1

• Sensor: 85MP global shutter CMOS
• Approx: 85MP at 20fps, 21MP at 40fps unlimited continued shooting
• Full Sensor Large Quad Pixel Auto Focus
• Dynamic Range: 15+ stops
• ISO 160-1638400
• 5-axis IBIS up to 9 stops
• 3.5” 9.33MP 1280nit 10-bit WCG RGB-OLED touch screen with 120Hz AE-AF
• 9.44MP 120Hz electronic viewfinder
• Price: $8,500USD

[Jon Warwick]

13 hours ago, Mr.Q said:

Well said. For me it's the M (and to a lesser degree the Q series) that's keeping me with Leica.  There's still no other camera system that offers a better size-to-performance ratio. The M10-R plus 35 APO is the new p4p king, as they would say in boxing.  Considering that it closely matches the SL2 + 35 APO in IQ, the GFX has become even more compelling as my 'big' system moving forward.

Yes exactly, that's the same for me.

I bought the SL2 mainly for the SL APO prime ....the lenses are indeed excellent, but apparently becoming less exclusive in their image quality now due to the advances being made in the smaller M lenses.

In any case, I probably won't go back to the SL range because a 100mp medium format sensor in the GFX100S will take a lot of catching up (for my needs at least).

For travelling with a miniature package, however, it's the M that remains peerless in my eyes. If anything, my SL2 --> GFX100S experience, and then the launch of the M 35mm APO, have combined to cement my view that the M system will remain my favored place to focus my attention when it comes to Leica. And given the speed that mirrorless is developing across the brands, there's something reassuring over the long term (for me at least) about putting my money into things like excellent M lenses due to them being mechanical, manual focus, no electronics ...and all in a package that's uniquely compact and light.   

[Simone_DF]

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17 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

This is a guess on my part, but one thing I found interesting is the M 35 APO can now focus down to .03 when using live view. 

When I first read that I just brushed it aside as okay that’s interesting, but thinking more about it, it now makes sense that what we could be getting down the road is an actual EVF M. Technically it’s possible now with a high enough resolution EVF it mimics OVF and you now have all the benefits without having to rely on a Viso Flex and rear screen 

Or maybe Leica designed it with both the M and the SL use in mind?

[Succisa75]

37 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Or maybe Leica designed it with both the M and the SL use in mind?

There is the SL35 APO for that 

[setuporg]

2 hours ago, frame-it said:

may as well drop this in for the OP who seems to have disappeared 😇:

Canon R1

...

I'm checking in regularly, you can see my remarks along the way.  So far, the thread confirms my original feeling that the lenses and long-term strategy win over system-shopping at each turn in the release cycle.  I prefer good design and handling and do not need world's best AF or screaming fps.  I almost never shoot continuous fps at all.  I did find SL2 refreshingly small with the new Sigma 24mm/f/3.5.  I'm not interested in A1 or R1.  The current leaning is back towards the M...

[thighslapper]

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned before (I haven't the patience to read all 575 posts) .... but Fuji are well known for actually paying attention to what their users say and want, with regular firmware updates and respond with model changes as a result. I have often wondered if all Leica HQ employees are deaf, as there are still some firmware and other issues that have been ignored for years. I like my SL2, but the battery life is abysmal and I prefer my Lumix S1R's. An S1R is almost identical in size and weight to a GFX100s. 

I'm all in for Fuji MF ...... you can never have too many pixels for landscape photography ...... so a GFX100s is coming my way. 

I've bought a couple of GF lenses in the last two weeks ..... only to find them now discounted by £450 each. I emailed Fuji of friday explaining I was rather peeved at missing out on the deal. I had £450 refunds today by return from Fuji & Wex and a cheerful email acknowledging that it was a bit unfair that I'd missed out. (I could have returned both for a refund then bought them again, which they obviously realised). I can't ever see Leica being so accommodating and customer friendly. 

I have a safe full of Leica and Lumix gear that is looking nervous. I occasionally whisper 'Ebay' just for fun .....

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, Succisa75 said:

There is the SL35 APO for that 

Yes, but now you can use the same lens on the M and on the "second best platform" for M lenses.

[setuporg]

4 hours ago, thighslapper said:

Fuji are well known for actually paying attention to what their users say and want,

The users here want Leicas that are better than Fujis.:)

[frame-it]

27 minutes ago, setuporg said:

The users here want Leicas that are better than Fujis.:)

nah, this isnt the M thread

[Alistairm]

I’m no expert. But I am a camera tart. I also take, scan, edit, post and print photos regularly and have found ways to enjoy all of those parts of the process. The cameras that I use the most at the moment are the MA, M10R, M10M, SL2 and SL2-S. I have owned an X1D 4116 for a few years and still do. Today I picked up a GFX100S. 

 

I have travelled the world with all of these bodies except the Fuji (which is new to me). At various times I have been smitten with all of them, for different reasons. I have most but not all of the lenses in each system, except the M, where I don’t have most of them, but do have an extensive and diverse collection. 

 

Here are my impressions. There is nothing scientific here, it’s just a short summary of my personal experience with each system. Before I do that, I have to say that any photographer could immerse themselves in any of these systems joyfully. They all make outstanding photos, have great sensors and include lens options that are optically outstanding and render with pleasing character. They are all highly configurable (except the Ms, which just are). 

 

GFX100S – it is brand new, so this is first impressions. I have the 32-64, 80 f1.7, 120 Macro and 250. Image quality is stunning. Technologically, the system is miles ahead. Physical controls are sensibly placed, intuitive and easy. Autofocus is fast, accurate, easy to use and seems to very effectively include most of the mod cons (eye detect etc). I didn’t really notice the EVF yet, which is probably high praise. The menu isn’t my favourite (and is significantly less enjoyable that the Leica or Hasselblad ones), but it’s perfectly functional and easy to use. The build quality is fine, but is plasticky. It operates and feels Iike a mid-range SLR, which is no bad thing. However, as functional and durable as the hard plastics are… they are hard plastics and not a patch on the enjoyment of handling the Leicas or Hasselblad. On the other hand, after playing with the European brands the Fujifilm offerings seem cheap and there is no competition in terms of bang for buck if outright image quality is your final objective. It is a fairly compact (large SLR sized) 100MP mini-medium format digital camera with an excellent lens line up and which is reasonably affordable. 

 

X1D 4116 – I was using the M10 extensively for travel photography and the X1D effectively replaced it for most of that.  I enjoyed having autofocus (which is slow but accurate) and absolutely love the image quality this system produces. The handling and menu system are superb. It is excruciatingly slow, the EVF is awful, the rubber smells, the weather sealing is ineffective compared to the SL system (I had mine fog up and fail after use in medium rain… it took 2 days to come good) and despite the gorgeous feel in hand, there are parts that feel delicate (eg SD card door) and my personal experience with weather sealing is not encouraging. 

 

The lenses have released slowly, but I didn’t mind given they are expensive, and they’re all at least excellent, including the zoom (which has gorgeous handling and build quality). Obviously it is a leaf shutter system with all that entails (easier to hand hold slow speeds, better for flash etc). 

 

But it just feels like a system that’s completely hinged off a stonkingly good sensor in its first generation and that is desperate for an updated body. The X1D (even accounting for the mkII) is just excruciatingly slow, to the extent that it is impracticable for much photography. The EVF sucks. There is no IBIS. Oh my the sensor though… huge dynamic range, good ISO response and seemingly limitless malleability in post. But the least versatile camera of those I own my a very large margin. 

 

And the lack of system progress troubles me deeply. The lenses are great, the dual battery charger is a jewel and so on… but without a body to do them justice the system is dead. Hasselblad needs to sort this out lickity split. 

 

SL2/SL2-S – the great all rounder. The X1D has sat on the shelf since the SL2 arrived. Amazing build quality, awesome SL lens lineup, plays perfectly with M lenses, IBIS in a Leica. The build quality is outstanding and I like the ergonomics more than the other cameras I’ve mentioned here. I’ve also used both my SL2 and SL2-S in very heavy rain, without any dramas. They are surprisingly light and manageable with M lenses. The AF works well, but is not state of the art. If you enjoy manually focussing lenses but not a rangefinder, there is no better camera than an SL2 mounted with an M lens (I’m not a fan of any of the fly by wire offerings for regular MF).  For mine the X1D’s larger format sensor still delivers slightly better outright IQ, but so marginally that it’s not worth bothering with dealing with the ponderous and spontaneity sapping Hasselblad. 

 

M bodies – The current generation are simply awesome… if you enjoy a RF. And they use M lenses. Nobody knows what the future holds, but we do know that M lenses are compact, manual, delightful to use, highly adaptable, not reliant on software algorithms and for these reasons and others very likely to hold their value. I’m addicted to the M35 APO. 

 

If I could only have one… Leica SL2 with my SL and M lenses please. 

 

[Jon Warwick]

That's a nice overview of your thoughts. Thanks for summarizing them.  I very much agree with your comments about the stunning image quality of the GFX100S. To my eyes, its image quality feels a noticeable jump up for big prints from anything in the 50mp area.  It's simply not sweating it, even at (say) 60" wide images for a printed output at 300dpi.  For landscapes with very fine detail (where i think the eye detects if something isn't properly resolved, like tree branches in the distance), I think the extra resolution and less false noise / moire from the 100mp sensor will become especially useful. Clearly, if I printed smaller, to say 30-40" wide, I'd have happily stayed with the SL2.

I also agree that build quality of the SL2 is amazing ....Leica, generally, is really special for the joy of feel and handling. Still my favorite in that regard. Only last night, I was just admiring the aesthetics my Leica M7  ....an object of such graceful design! And of course, the functionally interchangeable ecosystems of M lenses working well on the SLs is great.

But as I've written extensively above .... I went out with image quality in very large prints as the absolute #1 factor, hence why I'm now a GFX100S owner. And for that, it's certainly ticked the box for me.  I'd also add that (as a 6x7 film and 4x5 film user), it's a pleasure to be back to the roughly 4x5 frame ratio again ....it's like coming home, and I find it naturally more useful for many scenes than the 2x3 of 35mm full frame. 

Maybe one day there will be a camera that has both, ie, image quality of a 100mp medium format sensor + Leica design and build quality!

Edited March 9, 2021 by Jon Warwick

[meerec]

1 hour ago, Alistairm said:

If I could only have one… Leica SL2 with my SL and M lenses please.

That is my thinking, mate. But unlike you, I don’t own the X1D II, I went with the gorgeous and different to everything out there 907X instead, and I use that and the SL2 interchangeably with a small selection of native lenses from Hasselblad, Leica L and Leica M. This is to me the best of three worlds (Hasselblad 50mp mini-MF, Leica 47mp FF with multi shot IBIS hybrid with L lenses and M lenses). The life is beautiful in my mind. Oh I also use CL if I want a small travel day to day body, which I use with the M lenses only, notably the gorgeous black paint special edition Summaron-M 28. And the CL allows for limited wildlife and birding photography with the 90-280 Leica zoom and 1.5x1.7 crop to arrive at 714mm focal length equiv. WHAT ELSE TO DESIRE really. 

[aksclix]

5 hours ago, meerec said:

That is my thinking, mate. But unlike you, I don’t own the X1D II, I went with the gorgeous and different to everything out there 907X instead, and I use that and the SL2 interchangeably with a small selection of native lenses from Hasselblad, Leica L and Leica M. This is to me the best of three worlds (Hasselblad 50mp mini-MF, Leica 47mp FF with multi shot IBIS hybrid with L lenses and M lenses). The life is beautiful in my mind. Oh I also use CL if I want a small travel day to day body, which I use with the M lenses only, notably the gorgeous black paint special edition Summaron-M 28. And the CL allows for limited wildlife and birding photography with the 90-280 Leica zoom and 1.5x1.7 crop to arrive at 714mm focal length equiv. WHAT ELSE TO DESIRE really. 

I have the X1D but really want the 907x.. because of the moon related sentiment.. I am not sure how much use I can get out of it with no viewfinder.. I am worried my neck would hurt (I already have neck issues) if I constantly look down and shoot for longer periods of time.. also not sure how the LCD screen would perform under bright sunlight.. BUT, it's the most gorgeous looking camera.. X1D's ergonomics are hard to beat though... it's probably the best ergo ever!  

[setuporg]

The 907x shines on the V system.  You get the OVF like nothing else, WLF or prism.  I never had the V system before but got it in concert with 907x and it's such fun.  BTW a 503cw+907x+a V lens could be had for about the same as GFX100S+a GF lens.  Consider how much fun and new learning you can get with each.

[ravinj]

In working with the smaller proxy for GFX 100S, the GFX 50R, I found that I could take a scene with the most bland colors and boring light and come up with a picture much richer than the real scene, but that was also believable. I find this hard to replicate with any FF.

Sold the 50R, but kept the GF 32-64, GF 50 and GF 100-200 for use on the GFX 100S that will eventually be purchase once travel opens up. 

Another thing is incredible flare resistance of the GF lenses, certainly much better than the famous 50 APO M costing 3x more (even the later versions). There is more to an image than what the MTF charts would indicate.

 

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[Mr.Q]

After selling both my X1D2 and SL2, I've now been shooting with the GFX100S for 2 weeks. AF/IBIS works as advertised and I'm very happy that I switched for that reason alone.  I agree that the body feels plasticky.  Love the top LCD and 3-way tilting LCD, but those 2 things do not offset how good the X1D/SL2 feel in hand.  Even the lenses feel cheap and hollow compared to the bricks from Hassy and Leica.  Files are gorgeous and IQ is beyond what I can achieve with any FF camera,  but I prefer the colors from the X1D.  I think the 50MP sensor handled shadow noise better in higher ISO's as well.  So I guess the ideal camera (specifically for IQ) would be a X2D with a 50-75MP BSI sensor and GFX guts (IBIS, AF-C, and 3-way tilt screen) but I doubt anything even remotely close would ever be released so I'll make do with the GFX.  I honestly don't miss the SL2, maybe because I prefer shooting my M lenses on my M bodies, and for anything that requires AF I prefer my Sony's.