GFX100S vs SL2/X1D

[SJH]

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12 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

If I read your post correctly, I think your simplifying it just down to megapixels on a  sensor mainly and color science. 
it’s far more than that. Performance is the issue.

AF speeds that weren’t good at launch haven’t gotten any better, ISO performance, battery life issues, 4K video recording issues with anything than less than a 90% battery, buffering issues. 
 

Yes you are getting a beautiful camera, and prestige and yes you can use your M lenses ( that’s a secondary use for a camera designed for AF lenses) but you have to admit that for the price your paying for an SL2, there are now even more alternatives that out perform it by a large margin and the competition’s lenses have caught up in terms of image quality. 
 

We all want Leica to succeed, but to succeed they need to realise in this market segment competition is fierce and many customers and would be customers expect more. 

I think we are posting similar points and views so well said, if you read through this thread their is a degree of complacency that I do find baffling. This is really the issue with the SL2, it hasn’t become a worse camera but more issues have become known over the last year that we both refer to. The problem is that in a number of keys areas it was behind the competition at launch by a reasonable degree but all the known qualities, from glass to the EVF and handling etc to a certain extent mitigated that.

However, we now have the R5 & R6 which whilst they don’t quite have the build and menu’s of the SL2 they’re now very close with the advantage of a genuine 20fps with AFC plus the same EVF resolution. The RF lens line up is challenging Leica’s SL line and rapidly expanding all the time, plus EF lenses can be used without hardly any degradation in performance. The A1 and GFX100s have also been launched and have their own significant advantages; whilst early days we also have a MF camera now with potentially better AF performance  that exceeds the SL2. 

So as has been said many times now above we all want Leica to succeed but the lead they had with the SL2 in certain areas has diminished and slight areas of weakness are now increasing looking more like a gulf in performance. It is a wonderful camera to hold and use but when you’re paying £5k for it we should all expect more in terms of AF, ISO and battery performance. It’s woeful really that for example 14 months on many lenses produce a battery warning at 25 to 75% remaining and effectively shut down the use of 4K and higher FPS. Equally my needs for extreme wildlife and sports A1 type AF are limited but when shooting out in the Caribbean last February soon after launch (landscape & documentary type stuff) I spent a day though trying to shoot a pair of Pelicans in a secluded bay, there are are far better BIF shooters than me in this forum but it was pretty hard work compared to me doing that today with an R5 and the 100-500 RF lens.

You can see where the competition are going quite easily, the A1 for example will pretty much do what the A9ii, A7RIV and A7SIII can do combined with a 50mb sensor, likewise Canon now have a 50mb camera that is also an all rounder but excellent for both landscape and wildlife photographers. This market is relatively new for Leica and in 2015 the SL was something quite different and special, today’s market is highly competitive now in the 50mb FF arena and a handful of M glass users on SL2’s is really a niche within a niche, as well as those who will spend £5k on a camera that is not the all rounders the competition have going forward. Leica are a superb organisation so I expect this is vexing for them to right now, ‘should we and how can we stay competitive over the next 3-5 years’.

In summary Leica please fix the known issues and if you can just get the AF above where Panasonic got to last November then I for one would be a very happy customer, to reiterate I’m not expecting an R5 or A1!! However, I do expect something like a competitive AF system in 2021 and firmware updates that fix the issues referred to which are not within Leica’s normal approach to excellence.

[SJH]

This is something of a wild guess and speculation but the SL2-S sensor is capable of phase detect AF so:

1. Has the spring update actually been deliberately positioned to launch phase detect for the AL2-S to introduce this around the time Panasonic leaks the S2 and S2R?

2. Given Leica hasn’t said anything about an SL2 firmware update is that because they’re already looking at launching the SL3 with a phase detect sensor either from Panasonic (S2 & S2R) or Sony later this year and therefore they’re at the end of the performance envelope for the SL2, which effectively has been ‘sunsetted’ as well as the Q2. Using this type of sensor in the existing bodies would be a master stroke.

If you’re happy with you SL2 then great but in one relatively short sensor leap Leica is in a unique position and SL2-S users are delighted within a very short space of time. Could this also be why the SL lens line up appears to have slowed down to ensure the phase detect sensor performance matches the lenses.

[LocalHero1953]

8 minutes ago, SJH said:

if you read through this thread their is a degree of complacency that I do find baffling

I think you find it baffling because there are particular features and abilities in a camera that are important to you, but to others are not so important; they value other things more, that perhaps you do not. I don't have a problem with that.

To a casual eye on this forum there are as many people who have been drawn to Leica for what it offers as those who say they are moving to Sony or Fuji (etc). Making a call that Leica needs to change its approach or suffer in the market depends on which features Leica's chosen market sector considers important. And (as a small company that seems to prefer profits over market share) that market sector is not the same as Sony's, Fuji's, Canon's etc. We can all have a view on whether Leica has judged its offering to the market correctly. As can Leica - who have the best knowledge of their market, though that needn't mean they get it right.

The 'complacency' of those who find Leicas meet their needs will always be balanced by those who 'always want the next shiny toy'. Neither description is correct.

[LocalHero1953]

4 minutes ago, SJH said:

the SL2-S sensor is capable of phase detect AF

Is this the case? I thought that the capability depended on PD pixels being a part of the sensor. Have you seen that documented somewhere? (Not disagreeing, just seeking info).

[Stuart Richardson]

I was just coming to say something similar to Paul. I think it is very clear that people judge cameras by different metrics. Some people care solely about specs, some solely about how cameras feel and work in use. Some only care about "prestige" as you say. Some are interested in lenses far more than cameras. I am sure there are any number of other factors. Most people are somewhere in the middle and are interested in a mix of these things, but might have certain deal breakers. For example, I think Stev has written a lot about autofocus performance for video. For me, despite working in video as part of my practice and displaying videos in museums etc, I have used AFc video once, and it was for a zoom class I was teaching.

What I find interesting is that lots of commenters acknowledge that any modern camera will give great results, but then don't seem to understand why someone would choose an SL2 over something like an A7RIV.

Personally, I find color, handling, file flexibility, ability to use lenses I already have and character of the detail at 100% to be most important. For the last ten years or so I shot with the Leica S system. I got very used to and attached to the color produced by the S2 and S006. I feel like they have a very natural character right out of camera that is possible, but time consuming to replicate with most other cameras I have used. The SL2 produces very similar color to those cameras, while being smaller, even sharper and having high quality video, stabilization, perfect AFs focus accuracy for my use and a very comfortable way of handling. The camera gets out of my way, and it kicks out beautiful, sharp, naturally colored images that I can print with minimal effort. I see a lot of files from a lot of cameras in my work as a printer. Just yesterday I was printing prints from an IQ4 150mp, scans from 6x7 color neg and stills from a 1080p HD video of an art performance...I have seen a lot of different camera files...I think the SL2 produces one of the very best. It is not always about megapixels, more about how well the cameras use those megapixels. The Panasonic S1, for example, is 24mp, but it is a BRILLIANT 24mp.

In any case, I just wanted to indicate that there are many ways to judge cameras. I have used Sony cameras and I found them a fundamentally frustrating experience, but I certainly acknowledge from a technical standpoint they are capable of amazing things, and lots of photographers are using them to great effect. I also think the Fuji GFX100s sounds incredible, and I may even see if I can lay my hands on one at some point, but I will not be selling the SL2 to do so. It is simply too good of a camera to let go of, until something that can do all it does for me can replace it. I think that is unlikely to be anything other than an SL3 or S4.

P.S. None of this is to say that it would not be nice to see improvements in firmware or better performance in AF in later cameras. Only that just because they are not there, does not mean that the SL2 is somehow hopelessly outdated and unusable.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[hamey]

On 2/5/2021 at 3:49 PM, Jeff S said:

R lenses work well on the SL2.

Three ‘P’s’ also come to mind: profits (market assessment); priorities; and/or partnerships (L mount alliance options).

Jeff

Really, I tried my 28-90m R lens on the  SL2s and the Leica R to SL extension tube adapter the other day, and personally it was awful, and the images were not that great either.

Much prefer the Leica R to Canon combination, and remember I can get Focus Confirmation with my R lenses on the Canon.

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[SJH]

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3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I think you find it baffling because there are particular features and abilities in a camera that are important to you, but to others are not so important; they value other things more, that perhaps you do not. I don't have a problem with that.

To a casual eye on this forum there are as many people who have been drawn to Leica for what it offers as those who say they are moving to Sony or Fuji (etc). Making a call that Leica needs to change its approach or suffer in the market depends on which features Leica's chosen market sector considers important. And (as a small company that seems to prefer profits over market share) that market sector is not the same as Sony's, Fuji's, Canon's etc. We can all have a view on whether Leica has judged its offering to the market correctly. As can Leica - who have the best knowledge of their market, though that needn't mean they get it right.

The 'complacency' of those who find Leicas meet their needs will always be balanced by those who 'always want the next shiny toy'. Neither description is correct.

I understand the point you are making but equally I'm not actually wanting a shiny new toy, I'd just like soothing that's universally acknowledged to be relatively poor just over a year from launch (with no visible plans to rectify) to be enhanced so that I can continue to use Leica's wonderful lenses and camera's. Otherwise my fear is that whilst a number of people here are of course satisfied with their SL2's and it meeds their needs, in 2021 many potential purchased of the SL2 (as their first Leica) may well be put off given it's poor relative ranking in terms of AF. If you of course have used a Leica M, CL or Q2 or the previous SL it might not matter quite as much to you. So either Leica knows this and the business plan for the SL2 is primarily to focus on these groups from which Leica forecast excellent profits or they are seeking a wider market share for the ROI to attract new users to the Leica fold like the Q2 has. 

Now none of us actually know this but my fear is that its the latter and that therefore they are reliant on a significant number of 'new wins', again it would appear that Panasonic are in a bit of trouble with S1R sales in particular so if they do launch an S3R then this of course could highlight the issue I & others refer to above even more. Here's a review that is fairly typical generally for example albeit for the SL2-S https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/uk/reviews/leica-sl2-s-review

Now equally please don't get me wrong I'm not the type of person who does the "I'm moving to xxxx' type of YouTube review every 6 months and I'm very committed to Leica generally, I just feel that with some professional pressure from their dedicated user base they could push the envelope a bit further with the SL2 and really perfect what is an excellent camera in many many ways. Whether we like it or not Sony (and now Canon) has made AF a 'thing' and possible new purchasers of the SL2 and SL-S are going to demand a reasonable level of performance relative to these benchmarks but I don't think it has to be on a par, just better than now!!

Now we could all go round and round on this but only time will tell and only Leica knows the numbers and what their partner Panasonic are up to, it will be very interesting to revisit this thread in a couple of years time

[BernardC]

17 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

If I read your post correctly, I think your simplifying it just down to megapixels on a  sensor mainly and color science. 
it’s far more than that. Performance is the issue. AF speeds that weren’t good at launch haven’t gotten any better, ISO performance, battery life issues, 4K video recording issues with anything than less than a 90% battery, buffering issues. 

No, actually I was making a point that megapixels don't matter, especially when the difference is small and the format is the same (50 vs. 47 in this case).

However, you are correct in your understanding that colour science is an important criteria.

AF speed is the same as when you bought the camera, as is ISO (which independent tests show to be broadly similar to every competitive camera). The "4K video recording issues with anything than less than a 90% battery" only happen with unsupported third-party lenses now. They've been fixed with L-Mount lenses, as many here have reported, and the workaround is dead simple (carry a USB battery).

I am very sorry that you haven't gelled with your SL2. It happens with any camera. I totally understand why you come here to convince us that we shouldn't like the SL cameras either, but the fact is that many of us do.

What I have less sympathy for is the argument that "I paid a lot for this camera, therefore every feature on it should be class-leading, even when compared to other cameras that come out later." As I said earlier, all cameras have pros and cons. There are many good reasons to buy a Canon, or a Sony, or a Panasonic, or a Fuji, or a Hasselblad, or even a Leica.

[LocalHero1953]

39 minutes ago, SJH said:

I understand the point you are making but equally I'm not actually wanting a shiny new toy, I'd just like soothing that's universally acknowledged to be relatively poor just over a year from launch (with no visible plans to rectify) to be enhanced so that I can continue to use Leica's wonderful lenses and camera's. Otherwise my fear is that whilst a number of people here are of course satisfied with their SL2's and it meeds their needs, in 2021 many potential purchased of the SL2 (as their first Leica) may well be put off given it's poor relative ranking in terms of AF. If you of course have used a Leica M, CL or Q2 or the previous SL it might not matter quite as much to you. So either Leica knows this and the business plan for the SL2 is primarily to focus on these groups from which Leica forecast excellent profits or they are seeking a wider market share for the ROI to attract new users to the Leica fold like the Q2 has. 

Now none of us actually know this but my fear is that its the latter and that therefore they are reliant on a significant number of 'new wins', again it would appear that Panasonic are in a bit of trouble with S1R sales in particular so if they do launch an S3R then this of course could highlight the issue I & others refer to above even more. Here's a review that is fairly typical generally for example albeit for the SL2-S https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/uk/reviews/leica-sl2-s-review

Now equally please don't get me wrong I'm not the type of person who does the "I'm moving to xxxx' type of YouTube review every 6 months and I'm very committed to Leica generally, I just feel that with some professional pressure from their dedicated user base they could push the envelope a bit further with the SL2 and really perfect what is an excellent camera in many many ways. Whether we like it or not Sony (and now Canon) has made AF a 'thing' and possible new purchasers of the SL2 and SL-S are going to demand a reasonable level of performance relative to these benchmarks but I don't think it has to be on a par, just better than now!!

Now we could all go round and round on this but only time will tell and only Leica knows the numbers and what their partner Panasonic are up to, it will be very interesting to revisit this thread in a couple of years time

No, I don't think you do understand the point I was making. I was not accusing you of wanting the latest shiny toy - it was placed in '....' -  though that comment was only slightly tongue in cheek after reading yours about "complacency". My point was that while you may want the best AF/AFc and see that as "universally acknowledged to be relatively poor" (have you done a survey, to come up with 'universally'?), others (including me) do not find their photography dependent on AFc in the first place, nor does it need faster AFs - the quality of my photography is determined and limited by quite different things (see my website for what I photograph). I know with absolute certainty that I can find specific cameras that will perform better than a Leica in many specific respects. My wishes for cameras and lenses are determined not by whether someone else can do it better but whether something else would make my photography better, or whether I'd get greater enjoyment from it.

I have no problem (as I wrote) with others who want faster/better AF. For me, AF is good enough, as are megapixels. My priorities are just different.

Edited February 6, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[beewee]

8 hours ago, SJH said:

This is something of a wild guess and speculation but the SL2-S sensor is capable of phase detect AF

I don’t think this has been proven by anyone or mentioned by any reliable source. Yes, there’s great speculation that it’s a Sony sensor but just because it’s a Sony sensor, it doesn’t automatically mean it has PD pixels. There are plenty of Sony sensors that do not. Also, having PD pixels is not the only requirement for PDAF. There’s the whole processing pipeline from sensor to lens that is needed to enable such features and much of that tech is likely patented. So if Leica were to do the same, they’d probably need to license at least some of the patents from competitors.

I should also mention that although PDAF has been around for a long time, sensor-based PDAF is still fairly new. Patents generally will last 20 years so it will take some time before some of the fundamental/core sensor-based PDAF patents to expire. In the mean time, if Leica were to use patented technologies, they’d need to either license or cross-license the tech.

I do wonder, if hypothetically in an alternate reality, where Sony partnered up with Leica instead of Zeiss back in the early 2000s what would it be like for Leica today. Imagine the SL2 with Sony Alpha 1 capabilities. That would be a sight to behold.

Edited February 6, 2021 by beewee

[Succisa75]

13 hours ago, SJH said:

I think we are posting similar points and views so well said, if you read through this thread their is a degree of complacency that I do find baffling. This is really the issue with the SL2, it hasn’t become a worse camera but more issues have become known over the last year that we both refer to. The problem is that in a number of keys areas it was behind the competition at launch by a reasonable degree but all the known qualities, from glass to the EVF and handling etc to a certain extent mitigated that.

However, we now have the R5 & R6 which whilst they don’t quite have the build and menu’s of the SL2 they’re now very close with the advantage of a genuine 20fps with AFC plus the same EVF resolution. The RF lens line up is challenging Leica’s SL line and rapidly expanding all the time, plus EF lenses can be used without hardly any degradation in performance. The A1 and GFX100s have also been launched and have their own significant advantages; whilst early days we also have a MF camera now with potentially better AF performance  that exceeds the SL2. 

So as has been said many times now above we all want Leica to succeed but the lead they had with the SL2 in certain areas has diminished and slight areas of weakness are now increasing looking more like a gulf in performance. It is a wonderful camera to hold and use but when you’re paying £5k for it we should all expect more in terms of AF, ISO and battery performance. It’s woeful really that for example 14 months on many lenses produce a battery warning at 25 to 75% remaining and effectively shut down the use of 4K and higher FPS. Equally my needs for extreme wildlife and sports A1 type AF are limited but when shooting out in the Caribbean last February soon after launch (landscape & documentary type stuff) I spent a day though trying to shoot a pair of Pelicans in a secluded bay, there are are far better BIF shooters than me in this forum but it was pretty hard work compared to me doing that today with an R5 and the 100-500 RF lens.

You can see where the competition are going quite easily, the A1 for example will pretty much do what the A9ii, A7RIV and A7SIII can do combined with a 50mb sensor, likewise Canon now have a 50mb camera that is also an all rounder but excellent for both landscape and wildlife photographers. This market is relatively new for Leica and in 2015 the SL was something quite different and special, today’s market is highly competitive now in the 50mb FF arena and a handful of M glass users on SL2’s is really a niche within a niche, as well as those who will spend £5k on a camera that is not the all rounders the competition have going forward. Leica are a superb organisation so I expect this is vexing for them to right now, ‘should we and how can we stay competitive over the next 3-5 years’.

In summary Leica please fix the known issues and if you can just get the AF above where Panasonic got to last November then I for one would be a very happy customer, to reiterate I’m not expecting an R5 or A1!! However, I do expect something like a competitive AF system in 2021 and firmware updates that fix the issues referred to which are not within Leica’s normal approach to excellence.

Agree. Great post 👍

[Succisa75]

9 hours ago, BernardC said:

AF speed is the same as when you bought the camera, as is ISO (which independent tests show to be broadly similar to every competitive camera). The "4K video recording issues with anything than less than a 90% battery" only happen with unsupported third-party lenses now. They've been fixed with L-Mount lenses, as many here have reported, and the workaround is dead simple (carry a USB battery).

I am very sorry that you haven't gelled with your SL2. It happens with any camera. I totally understand why you come here to convince us that we shouldn't like the SL cameras either, but the fact is that many of us do.

I think you may have misunderstood my post. 
I’m not here to convince people to leave the SL system. Far from it. Our conversations here (or at least mine)  are to say don’t just settle because it’s Leica but speak up so the community can grow and Leica can succeed. Reality is the L Mount systems aren’t doing as well as many hoped. I know this from a number of reliable contacts and the reason it’s not doing well is mainly the AF system and Price. Just like our smartphones, many buyers decide on a phone based on the cameras in it. They don’t care if it’s the latest snapdragon processor etc. They want good images. 
for cameras, it’s good AF and good video specs. Most cameras produce beautiful images now.  You would be hard pressed to see an IQ difference after editing from Sony to Leica to Canon etc. 
So it really comes down to performance feel and price. 
Leica is the gold standard for build and feel of a camera. We all can agree, holding a Leica (Made in Germany models) is one of those great wonders in the photograph world. 
Price, well it’s a Leica so we accept some unexplainable pricing on certain products. We guff and scoff under our breath, we come on forums to justify our desires to spend far more than what we think we should, but in the end we pull out the credit card  
Unfortunately Panasonic didn’t succeed on the price front, and as the gateway to the L Mount alliance they saw extremely slow pickup of their cameras due to the premium price and lack of lens choice. Sigma is ultimately the saviour of the alliance with great lenses at affordable prices, but it will take time for people to give the L Mount alliance a second look. 

Performance is key. I walk around with an M nobody expects me to be the fastest “focuser” in the west. All they want to see are the pics from a Leica and maybe ask if they can hold it. 
The Q is the best of both worlds and the sales have proven that. 
the SL2 while priced decently at its launch, has yet to get the updates many were told that were going to happen.  Yes we can say Covid could be a factor, but it hasn’t stopped the camera industry from coming out with some impressive performing cameras in 2020 and now 2021.  One could even argue the SL2-S was a way for Leica to come out with a less expensive camera and fix some issues they had with the SL2  

Additionally the video issue with battery life pushed people away. Is it fixed now? I still hear mixed messages on that. Regardless that’s another unnecessary knock that should have been addressed before launch.

To wrap this up as I think we are repeating ourselves at this point, I hope Leica is taking measure to become more competitive. Because in reality this forum group while decent in numbers, can’t sustain a company with the number of sales. More customers need to be brought into the Leica family and one of those ways is to compete with what’s out there. More aggressive marketing, better specs. Keep the premium price, but give us better performance. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Succisa75

[BernardC]

13 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

the SL2 while priced decently at its launch, has yet to get the updates many were told that were going to happen.

The promised update was multishot, and we got that a long time ago.

13 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

Price, well it’s a Leica so we accept some unexplainable pricing on certain products.

Do we? The SL2 is cheaper than the A1 (pre-order), and the R5 is nearly as expensive. The SL2-S is cheaper than all of those.

Sure, when the original SL came-out, some people were shocked by the price, compared to an A7. Sony understood what was happening, and released the A9 18 months later.

I won't argue that any of these cameras are cheap, but we are well past the point where we can call Leica's pricing unexplainable. High-end mirrorless is a market segment, every full-frame player has their representative(s) in this segment, and they all cost about the same.

 

13 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

Panasonic didn’t succeed on the price front, and as the gateway to the L Mount alliance they saw extremely slow pickup of their cameras due to the premium price and lack of lens choice. Sigma is ultimately the saviour of the alliance with great lenses at affordable prices, but it will take time for people to give the L Mount alliance a second look. 

Panasonic started at the high-end. They knew what they were doing. Now they offer the best all-rounder entry-level full-frame, and the 20-60 is an outstanding kit lens. They also have a series of smaller/cheaper lenses.

 

Most of your concerns reflect where we stood over a year ago: "the S2 doesn't have multishot, doesn't communicate well with some L-mount lenses, Panasonic has no entry-level, Leica has the most expensive cameras on the market." In a way, this shows how much initial impressions are hard to shake, especially when they are continuously reinforced by the usual advertising-supported sources.

 

13 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

More customers need to be brought into the Leica family and one of those ways is to compete with what’s out there.

Leica is probably the only player still making a profit. I'm sure they know what they are doing, and what they need to do to keep going. Unlike most of their competition, they aren't a tiny division of a huge company.

[aksclix]

truth be told, I think with the introduction of SL2, there are way more Leica users in the market today than there were a few years ago and with SL becoming available at around 2000 US, more people have shown interest in Leica I think.. The mirrorless FF pricing is just about perfect compared to the other brands.. it's the S3 that is simply outrageously priced IMO. 

[Succisa75]

3 hours ago, BernardC said:

The promised update was multishot, and we got that a long time ago.

Do we? The SL2 is cheaper than the A1 (pre-order), and the R5 is nearly as expensive. The SL2-S is cheaper than all of those.

Sure, when the original SL came-out, some people were shocked by the price, compared to an A7. Sony understood what was happening, and released the A9 18 months later.

I won't argue that any of these cameras are cheap, but we are well past the point where we can call Leica's pricing unexplainable. High-end mirrorless is a market segment, every full-frame player has their representative(s) in this segment, and they all cost about the same.

 

Panasonic started at the high-end. They knew what they were doing. Now they offer the best all-rounder entry-level full-frame, and the 20-60 is an outstanding kit lens. They also have a series of smaller/cheaper lenses.

 

Most of your concerns reflect where we stood over a year ago: "the S2 doesn't have multishot, doesn't communicate well with some L-mount lenses, Panasonic has no entry-level, Leica has the most expensive cameras on the market." In a way, this shows how much initial impressions are hard to shake, especially when they are continuously reinforced by the usual advertising-supported sources.

 

Leica is probably the only player still making a profit. I'm sure they know what they are doing, and what they need to do to keep going. Unlike most of their competition, they aren't a tiny division of a huge company.

Media wasn’t allowed to do full reviews on the camera for months after launch due to the AF and other functionality not at the level Leica was comfortable with. They were told to wait after the first of the year 2020. 
This is part of the reason why you only saw first impression videos from Media. 
 

Panasonic misread the market and  priced the cameras too expensive. They had three lenses at launch and Sigma only had the MC-21 adapter with promise of lenses coming in the future. 
 

What helped Panasonic was the S1H initially and then recently the S5. However the S5 take up isn’t as strong worldwide as it is in some countries. Especially now with Nikon, Sony and Canon offerings. Having said that its a good camera at a competitive price. 

let’s be honest, multishot is more of a gimmick than anything and this goes for many cameras that have this function. Until you can get to the point it can be used handheld, and with moving subjects it’s only applicable to fine art, landscape or for a model that can hold still for a very long period. On top of that you then need a computer to process the very large files. 
 

yes the A1 is more expensive but it’s three cameras in one with no compromise except the flip up display. 
The R5 has better video than the SL2, AF, Burst speeds, buffering, fantastic lenses that are optically about as good as Leica and some lenses that have supersede Leica’s own offerings. 
This argument doesn’t really age well considering. 

I hope Leica is turning a profit in this troubling time. We don’t know for sure but I do know that lack of tourism will have an effect. 

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Succisa75

[beewee]

4 hours ago, aksclix said:

truth be told, I think with the introduction of SL2, there are way more Leica users in the market today than there were a few years ago and with SL becoming available at around 2000 US, more people have shown interest in Leica I think..

I’m doubtful that the SL2 brought many new non-Leica users into the fold. Used SL bodies combined with more affordable Sigma lenses might do the trick.

What Leica really needs is another M9 revolution for the SL system. The M9 brought Leica back from the brink and funded the company’s revolution to where it is today. Without the M9, Leica wouldn’t have the funds to develop the M240 and subsequent cameras. The M9 did two things. It got people interested in the M system and prove that Leica can make a viable full frame range finder camera. It also gave people opportunity to make use of almost 50 years worth of M lenses in full frame. Additionally, the M9 meant that those who got M8/M8.2 earlier would likely upgrade and those used bodies provided a way for people to get in on the M system without the buy-in cost of the M9, myself included. The M-E 220 offered a more affordable option for people interested in getting into the M system. There are enough used digital M bodies on the market that Leica no longer need to offer a lower cost option.

In some ways the original SL is playing the role of the M8/M8.2 and the SL2-S, Panasonic S1/S5 is playing the role of the M-E but it seems not very many people that aren’t already in the Leica ecosystem are interested. There are some interests from existing M users that are getting into the SL system which will hopefully grow that system. Without the more affordable but very high quality lens options from Sigma, I doubt Leica would be able to grow the SL user base much even with used bodies since the SL lenses are so high priced. The L-mount alliance was the right move since the SL system didn’t have 50 years of used lenses for users to get into the system with so Sigma is playing that role. It gives SL users the opportunity to buy into the L-mount system and tap the extraordinary SL lenses for the specific focal lengths that they value most, while still having more affordable L-mount lenses to get a broader focal length coverage through Sigma without breaking the bank.

In some ways, I see the Sony A1 as the M9 of its time. If Leica can come up with an SL camera that is an A1 competitor with comparable AF and the L-mount alliance can produce some good super telephoto lenses, then we might see another M9-like boom for the SL system.

Edited February 7, 2021 by beewee

[caissa]

3 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

Media wasn’t allowed to do full reviews on the camera for months after launch due to the AF and other functionality not at the level Leica was comfortable with. They were told to wait after the first of the year 2020. 
This is part of the reason why you only saw first impression videos from Media. 
 

Panasonic misread the market and  priced the cameras too expensive. They had three lenses at launch and Sigma only had the MC-21 adapter with promise of lenses coming in the future. 
 

What helped Panasonic was the S1H initially and then recently the S5. However the S5 take up isn’t as strong worldwide as it is in some countries. Especially now with Nikon, Sony and Canon offerings. Having said that its a good camera at a competitive price. 

let’s be honest, multishot is more of a gimmick than anything and this goes for many cameras that have this function. Until you can get to the point it can be used handheld, and with moving subjects it’s only applicable to fine art, landscape or for a model that can hold still for a very long period. On top of that you then need a computer to process the very large files. 
 

yes the A1 is more expensive but it’s three cameras in one with no compromise except the flip up display. 
The R5 has better video than the SL2, AF, Burst speeds, buffering, fantastic lenses that are optically about as good as Leica and some lenses that have supersede Leica’s own offerings. 
This argument doesn’t really age well considering. 

I hope Leica is turning a profit in this troubling time. We don’t know for sure but I do know that lack of tourism will have an effect. 

 

You say multishot is a gimmick, but only because you don’t need it. If you are into archiving and do this as part of your work, then you look at it differently.

Some people use multishot much more often than all the gimmicks about the fastest AF. For those the Sony highres is just a bad joke and almost unusable in comparison.

Edited February 7, 2021 by caissa

[aksclix]

1 hour ago, beewee said:

I’m doubtful that the SL2 brought many new non-Leica users into the fold. Used SL bodies combined with more affordable Sigma lenses might do the trick.

What Leica really needs is another M9 revolution for the SL system. The M9 brought Leica back from the brink and funded the company’s revolution to where it is today. Without the M9, Leica wouldn’t have the funds to develop the M240 and subsequent cameras. The M9 did two things. It got people interested in the M system and prove that Leica can make a viable full frame range finder camera. It also gave people opportunity to make use of almost 50 years worth of M lenses in full frame. Additionally, the M9 meant that those who got M8/M8.2 earlier would likely upgrade and those used bodies provided a way for people to get in on the M system without the buy-in cost of the M9, myself included. The M-E 220 offered a more affordable option for people interested in getting into the M system. There are enough used digital M bodies on the market that Leica no longer need to offer a lower cost option.

In some ways the original SL is playing the role of the M8/M8.2 and the SL2-S, Panasonic S1/S5 is playing the role of the M-E but it seems not very many people that aren’t already in the Leica ecosystem are interested. There are some interests from existing M users that are getting into the SL system which will hopefully grow that system. Without the more affordable but very high quality lens options from Sigma, I doubt Leica would be able to grow the SL user base much even with used bodies since the SL lenses are so high priced. The L-mount alliance was the right move since the SL system didn’t have 50 years of used lenses for users to get into the system with so Sigma is playing that role. It gives SL users the opportunity to buy into the L-mount system and tap the extraordinary SL lenses for the specific focal lengths that they value most, while still having more affordable L-mount lenses to get a broader focal length coverage through Sigma without breaking the bank.

In some ways, I see the Sony A1 as the M9 of its time. If Leica can come up with an SL camera that is an A1 competitor with comparable AF and the L-mount alliance can produce some good super telephoto lenses, then we might see another M9-like boom for the SL system.

You're probably right.. I don't have a lot of data points to support my guess.. My guess was based on how many I know got them and a few different forums.. Leica SL2 is my first Leica, unless we don't mind counting the D Lux Typ 109  as one..  I've had that for over 2 years.. sold just recently

SL2 is not priced out of reach when you consider the A7r4 introductory price and the A9II, R5 etc.. 

[P1505]

You could argue every feature beyond focus and exposure is a gimmick.

Next up people will demand automatic composition and cropping. And they’ll not want to trigger the shutter themselves.

Photography has split into the “whatever it takes to get the photo as simply and quickly as possible” and the “I want the painful experience of doing it myself” people. I’m in the second set mostly.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Succisa75]

3 hours ago, caissa said:

You say multishot is a gimmick, but only because you don’t need it. If you are into archiving and do this as part of your work, then you look at it differently.

Some people use multishot much more often than all the gimmicks about the fastest AF. For those the Sony highres is just a bad joke and almost unusable in comparison.

No disrespect to those that use this feature, but if you look at the masses rarely is it used. 
One could argue Focus Stacking would have more use for a larger number of photographers than multishot. 
in addition wouldn’t better AF, battery management, buffering, be of more use to many that want to buy into the system than multishot?