M6 TTL Millenium BP, Dragon 2000 or new MP BP??

[Matlock]

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5 hours ago, ktmrider2 said:

So, did you buy your M6TTL within a couple months of its introduction?  Later models had the battery problem corrected during manufacturing.  And I have owned every film Leica up to the M7 purchasing the M4-2, M4-P, M6 and M6TTL new while owning numerous M2's, M4's, one M5, one CL, and one M3.  I have no reason to trash any model.  However, I sent my M6TTL back to Leica within 3 months of purchase due to the battery issue.  It came back a few weeks later and the issue was cured under warranty.

Just because you have not experienced the issue does not mean it has not occurred.  Again, did your M6TTL's come from several years into the manufacturing cycle or was it one of the earliest M6TTL's made?

Mine was one of the vey first M6TTLs and never had any problems. Of course this sort of thing can happen on the odd occasion but this is the usual "scaremongering" that is so common on forums.

[plasticman]

5 hours ago, ktmrider2 said:

So, did you buy your M6TTL within a couple months of its introduction?  Later models had the battery problem corrected during manufacturing. ...

Just because you have not experienced the issue does not mean it has not occurred.  Again, did your M6TTL's come from several years into the manufacturing cycle or was it one of the earliest M6TTL's made?

The tone of my post to which you responded is too harsh, which I apologize for (it's too late for me to edit now), but I'm becoming exasperated by these internet scares that propagate about perfectly good cameras (and lenses in other threads). 

In the case of my first M6TTL - I actually have no idea whether it was a late or an early model. Why do I have no idea? Because before all the stories about 'inevitably' failing circuit-boards, incessantly dying batteries, and horrible viewfinders, I simply went out and looked at some really nice used cameras, held them in my hand, and picked one that felt great to use. It worked perfectly.

The same goes for the two M2s, M7, Millennium M6 and even the M8. Obviously if I'd read all the horror stories that fly round nowadays I wouldn't have bought any of them - anyone reading the threads here would think they were unusable junk (except maybe the M2s).

I'm sorry you had a problem with your specific M6TTL (which Leica fixed). It seems they also fixed something in the manufacturing process so that the problem was maybe isolated to a very small early batch - these in turn may probably have mostly been fixed by now, by their owners over the years.
My point is, there's no need to then spread your isolated bad experience over cameras - particularly the late-manufacture ones being discussed here - which are supremely beautiful and capable pieces of photographic equipment, most of which will be usable and taking photographs when the majority of us here today are long dead and gone. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by plasticman

[wattsy]

I owned, I think, three M6TTLs when they were current cameras and they all functioned without fault. I burned through an unhealthy number of Leica cameras and lenses in my first decade of being a Leica user. Looking back, I rather wish I stuck with the M6TTLs because those cameras did everything that I currently require from a Leica film camera.

[plaidshirts]

It's too bad some people  can't differentiate between trolls and people expressing their genuine experiences and opinions.

Please save your outrage for the former.

Thank you.

P.S. I never had an issue with my M6TTL either. 

[Matlock]

9 minutes ago, plaidshirts said:

It's too bad some people  can't differentiate between trolls and people expressing their genuine experiences and opinions.

Please save your outrage for the former.

Thank you.

P.S. I never had an issue with my M6TTL either. 

I don't think anyone intimated that you are a troll but, sadly, there are plenty about.

 

[jaapv]

On 1/29/2021 at 10:07 PM, plasticman said:

So not only does the M6TTL meter fail and has a worthless viewfinder, now I learn it also eats batteries! This has been a truly enlightening thread. It's a sheer mystery anyone ever managed to take a photograph with these worthless pieces of junk.

Seems strange to me that I've never suffered any of these maladies with mine...

edit: I was going to leave my post with just this sarcasm, but on reflection, I think it's important that visitors reading these threads genuinely know what utter rubbish can be spouted by people who seem to consider themselves experts on Leica cameras. I've owned two M6TTL cameras, and neither of them have 'eaten batteries' in any way - I haven't changed the battery in my Millennium for more than 2 years, maybe longer. I deplore the way these idiotic myths get traction. Tens of thousands of M6TTLs are "still being used" (that phrase that makes it sound like they are ancient cameras - whereas they were still being manufactured just 19 years ago). Ridiculous.

A bit harsh, Mani. I used the TTL for a couple of years and though it was a nice camera I found the occasional viewfinder whiteout annoying and was not completely happy with the size. So when I could buy a new-old-stock last series M6 Classic I was happy to sell the TTL. I still have and use the M6. 

[ktmrider2]

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If I was too blunt in my second post I apologize.  Really, it was a long time ago and my memory is I was hiking near Anchorage, Alaska, and the battery went dead after only having the M6TTL a couple months.  I replaced the battery and it died within a month or so and I ended up calling the store (Tamarkin even back then).  They said they had had a few similar complaints and suggested I return the camera to Leica.  I did and Leica repaired it.  I think that was the last new Leica I ever purchased because by then I was falling in love with the M2 and M4 and did not want the AE capability of the M7.

Have used Leicas since 1974 (Leica CL).  Mistakes happen in design and manufacturing all the time (becomes important if it is a jet engine powering the aircraft when the failure occurs.  As the pilot, ask me how I know).  Leica has generally stood by their product and repaired their mistakes (thinking M9 sensor corrosion).  Again, did not mean to be so blunt and did not mean to cast aspersions on the M6TTL model but just stated what happened with mine.  

My current inventory of film Leicas (way too many) is a 1952 3f, 1958 button rewind M2, and a very recent purchase of an 50th anniversary black chrome M4 (mint) from Classic Connection.  And there is even a seldom used digital somewhere in the cabinet. I think it is an addiction (wife laughing in background).

Edited January 30, 2021 by ktmrider2

[philipus]

My pleasure Michael. I'm pretty sure they still can do it, but send them a message (https://us.leica-camera.com/Contact for all markets' contact details).

I forgot to say that the TTL has another feature that I love which is the MP doesn't have: that the shutter speed dial turns in the same direction as the light meter's arrows. I've always found this little detail just marvellously brilliant in its simplicity to enhance the user experience. It is also the same direction that the aperture ring turns on newer M lenses.

On 1/29/2021 at 10:43 PM, Michael.Randy said:

Thanks Philip, i do agree, about the Leica geekery, i am in love with the apearance of it, plus maybe i am just a little too fussy, but i like the bigger shutter dial like the M6 TTL, not like the classic, faster to adjust

 

I wonder if Leica still can install the lens you mentioned in vf? 
 

Regards

Mike

I'm no electrician but aren't 1/3N just two SR44 stacked together in a bigger casing? I might be wrong. I use both though and see no difference. I actually prefer two SR44 because I can then carry an extra pair in a little leather holder that attaches around the strap. Actually here's a question - is that a Leica part? I got it (unnecessarily of course) when I bought my M4 and the dealer said it's from Leica but I've never found official info on this.

I seem to remember that LR44 are not recommended because they don't hold the voltage or is it wattage, I can never remember those things, as they deplete which can affect the light meter's readings. Then again I have used LR44 in the past and never noticed that the meter would have been off. Or it might just be that my metering skills covered up the error 😁 I did notice though that they depleted faster than the other batteries.

On 1/29/2021 at 12:50 PM, Matlock said:

My M6TTL has never eaten batteries. I suspect it is those who used 2x SR44 or LR44 instead of the recommended Lithium 1/3N.  

 

[ktmrider2]

If you are talking about the small condenser lens which was removed for the M4/2, M4/P, M6, M6TTL and (not sure) M7 which was done as a cost saving measure, I know DAG and Sherry can.  And I think YeYe Camera which would probably be the fastest!

[Matlock]

7 hours ago, philipus said:

 

I'm no electrician but aren't 1/3N just two SR44 stacked together in a bigger casing? I might be wrong. I use both though and see no difference. I actually prefer two SR44 because I can then carry an extra pair in a little leather holder that attaches around the strap. Actually here's a question - is that a Leica part? I got it (unnecessarily of course) when I bought my M4 and the dealer said it's from Leica but I've never found official info on this.

I seem to remember that LR44 are not recommended because they don't hold the voltage or is it wattage, I can never remember those things, as they deplete which can affect the light meter's readings. Then again I have used LR44 in the past and never noticed that the meter would have been off. Or it might just be that my metering skills covered up the error 😁 I did notice though that they depleted faster than the other batteries.

 

1/3Ns are Lithium, SR44s are Silver Oxide, very different. (LR44s are Alkaline). I have seen the holder but the one I saw was produced by Luigi of Italy.

[Michael.Randy]

7 hours ago, philipus said:

My pleasure Michael. I'm pretty sure they still can do it, but send them a message (https://us.leica-camera.com/Contact for all markets' contact details).

I forgot to say that the TTL has another feature that I love which is the MP doesn't have: that the shutter speed dial turns in the same direction as the light meter's arrows. I've always found this little detail just marvellously brilliant in its simplicity to enhance the user experience. It is also the same direction that the aperture ring turns on newer M lenses.

I'm no electrician but aren't 1/3N just two SR44 stacked together in a bigger casing? I might be wrong. I use both though and see no difference. I actually prefer two SR44 because I can then carry an extra pair in a little leather holder that attaches around the strap. Actually here's a question - is that a Leica part? I got it (unnecessarily of course) when I bought my M4 and the dealer said it's from Leica but I've never found official info on this.

I seem to remember that LR44 are not recommended because they don't hold the voltage or is it wattage, I can never remember those things, as they deplete which can affect the light meter's readings. Then again I have used LR44 in the past and never noticed that the meter would have been off. Or it might just be that my metering skills covered up the error 😁 I did notice though that they depleted faster than the other batteries.

 

Hi Philip, 

I do agree with what you mentioned about the shutter dial, because i am currently using M10, and M6 TTL. Your comments have really made me sure to get the M6 millenium, and i believe i will have a good time like you do, cheers

 

I also use 1/3 N and have so far no problem for the last 6 months, maybe i dont shoot that much, i dont know, but battery life should vary i guess

Enjoying my M6 ttl, but i have one experience using ilford pan 400 a little bit rough when cocking the stroke too fast, maybe the film canister?

Reagrds

Mike

[philipus]

Ah yes of course, which the manual also points out when noting that both 1/3N and SR44 are recommended.

4 hours ago, Matlock said:

1/3Ns are Lithium, SR44s are Silver Oxide, very different. (LR44s are Alkaline). I have seen the holder but the one I saw was produced by Luigi of Italy.

Very happy to hear it Michael There are after all only 2000 of them on this whole planet so grab one while you can. 

In my experience such roughness usually comes from me not having managed insert the end of the film perfectly horizontally towards the take-up spool so that it goes into the tulip a little bit at an angle, but I guess it could be the canister too. Funnily enough it happens more on my M4 than on the TTL.

4 hours ago, Michael.Randy said:

Hi Philip, 

I do agree with what you mentioned about the shutter dial, because i am currently using M10, and M6 TTL. Your comments have really made me sure to get the M6 millenium, and i believe i will have a good time like you do, cheers

 

I also use 1/3 N and have so far no problem for the last 6 months, maybe i dont shoot that much, i dont know, but battery life should vary i guess

Enjoying my M6 ttl, but i have one experience using ilford pan 400 a little bit rough when cocking the stroke too fast, maybe the film canister?

Reagrds

Mike

 

[newtoleica]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

This is my newly purchased almost mint M6TTL Millennium black paint. Its beautiful.

I chose not to get an MP for two reasons 1. I really wanted the TTL style shutter speed dial, not a small one that goes the wrong way. 2. I like the idea of owning a special edition that looks simply stunning....

[logan2z]

4 hours ago, newtoleica said:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

This is my newly purchased almost mint M6TTL Millennium black paint. Its beautiful.

I chose not to get an MP for two reasons 1. I really wanted the TTL style shutter speed dial, not a small one that goes the wrong way. 2. I like the idea of owning a special edition that looks simply stunning....

Hard to argue with that choice, it looks beautiful.  Enjoy!

[newtoleica]

8 hours ago, logan2z said:

Hard to argue with that choice, it looks beautiful.  Enjoy!

Thanks. All it needs really is a black dot rather than a red one.......

[plasticman]

10 minutes ago, newtoleica said:

Thanks. All it needs really is a black dot rather than a red one.......

Exactly! I bought some black dots intending to do this myself, but I simply haven't dared to get that red dot off... 😬 (if someone has some tips that don't involve breaking or scratching anything, I'd really appreciate it)

As for the reasons for your choice: before @philipus reminded us about it, I'd forgotten that this was my exact thinking before getting the Millennium - I've never understood the contra-wise shutter speed dial. I know it's a religious difference that people have fought wars over, but turning the wheel the same way as the arrows is a no-brainer to me.

I also like the ease with which the dial can be altered with the camera to my eye. With meter-less cameras like my M2 I take a reading with my meter (if necessary) and alter the dial by looking down on the top-plate, then just leave it or alter it between shots if the light changes a lot. But metering in real-time for greater accuracy with the M6TTL, I really like to feel the dial at the edge of the camera.

[wattsy]

1 hour ago, plasticman said:

I've never understood the contra-wise shutter speed dial.

The direction may simply have been dictated by the mechanics inside. I think it is also fair to say that the more traditional method of setting exposure was shutter priority – set the shutter to a suitable hand holding speed (usually fighting against the limits of slow film technology) and adjust the aperture to the correct exposure. That way, the direction of the shutter dial wasn't very important. I get the impression that aperture-priority and using depth of field as a compositional choice is a more recent phenomenon (certainly the obsession with micro-thin DOF and using very fast shutter speeds and/or ND filters to compensate seems to be more of a millennial generation thing).

Edited February 1, 2021 by wattsy

[newtoleica]

19 minutes ago, wattsy said:

 I get the impression that aperture-priority and using depth of field as a compositional choice is a more recent phenomenon (certainly the obsession with micro-thin DOF and using very fast shutter speeds and/or ND filters to compensate seems to be more of a millennial generation thing).

Nope.... being 58, I'm certainly not a millennial.... I've used aperture priority and controlling creative DOF since I started in the late 70s. In fact I briefly had a Canon AE1 as a teenager and hated it for being S priority - replaced it with an OM2. So yes, feeling the dial by touch and same direction as pointer were essentials for me.

[Danner]

As a glasses wearer, and M-lover, I would go with the 0.72 MP without hesitation.  Also, the 'newness' weighs in favor of the MP.  The Millennium would have a collector/appreciation factor worth considering, but for a shooter, the MP seems the better choice.

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[plasticman]

5 minutes ago, Danner said:

As a glasses wearer, and M-lover, I would go with the 0.72 MP without hesitation.  Also, the 'newness' weighs in favor of the MP.  The Millennium would have a collector/appreciation factor worth considering, but for a shooter, the MP seems the better choice.

Why is it better for a 'shooter'? Serious question.