Jump to content

M6 TTL Millenium BP, Dragon 2000 or new MP BP??


Recommended Posts

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi Mani, I ordered a black dot from a company in Australia called adeal.com.au because I couldn't find them in Europe at the time. This was in 2012 so I'm pretty sure things are different today. There are instrux online how to remove the red dot. I seem to remember I had to push on it with my thumb and turn. It was in any event really easy, as was attaching the black one. Then some years later I had to send the camera to Leica to fix the rangefinder. For that they had to remove the dot but they were kind enough to put on a black one again. This is how it looks.

About the shutter speed dial I should have said that I don't mind dials that go the other way. My other M is an M4 and I don't mind using that camera at the same time as I use the TTL. But there's no link between the dial and a meter's arrows of course so the direction is not relevant to the cameras functionality in the same way.

From a usability perspective the other thing I really prefer about the TTL over my M4 is that the dial is much larger and offers much better grip due to its 'grooves' or whatever it's called. Even though the dial on my M4 turns quite, but not too, easily, it is sometimes (warm weather/fingers, cold weather/gloves) difficult to turn it, esp. with the camera to my eye. I have to use much more force than necessary. The TTL's dial is just so much more easy to turn since it goes almost to the edge of the camera.

Little things like that make me appreciate the TTL's design more and more over time.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Flickr (crop)
203FE 80/2.8 Ektar CS9000

3 hours ago, plasticman said:

Exactly! I bought some black dots intending to do this myself, but I simply haven't dared to get that red dot off... 😬 (if someone has some tips that don't involve breaking or scratching anything, I'd really appreciate it)

As for the reasons for your choice: before @philipus reminded us about it, I'd forgotten that this was my exact thinking before getting the Millennium - I've never understood the contra-wise shutter speed dial. I know it's a religious difference that people have fought wars over, but turning the wheel the same way as the arrows is a no-brainer to me.

I also like the ease with which the dial can be altered with the camera to my eye. With meter-less cameras like my M2 I take a reading with my meter (if necessary) and alter the dial by looking down on the top-plate, then just leave it or alter it between shots if the light changes a lot. But metering in real-time for greater accuracy with the M6TTL, I really like to feel the dial at the edge of the camera.

Edited by philipus
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, philipus said:

 I ordered a black dot from a company in Australia called adeal.com.au because I couldn't find them in Europe at the time. This was in 2012 so I'm pretty sure things are different today. There are instrux online how to remove the red dot. I seem to remember I had to push on it with my thumb and turn. It was in any event really easy, as was attaching the black one.

Hi Philip! I have the black dots, plus I remember getting a black thumb trying to get that red dot off the camera. For some reason it wasn't easy for me - but I think I was probably being squeamish. Maybe I'll locate those black dots again and give it a new try.

As for the shutter-speed dial - I don't mind the way it behaves on the M2 - but that's because it doesn't have an internal meter. Otherwise I would go insane looking at the arrows in the vf and turning the dial in the opposite direction. That has to be a masochist's dream.

PS: looking at the brassing on your Millennium - now that looks like a shooter's camera to me. 😉

Edited by plasticman
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, newtoleica said:

Nope.... being 58, I'm certainly not a millennial.... I've used aperture priority and controlling creative DOF since I started in the late 70s.

I knew someone would say this.😀 I was thinking more of the 1950s when the M was developed. My reference to millennials was in relation to the fad for "F1.0 type" photography.

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Danner said:

Because of the finder magnification while wearing glasses.

But in this case they are both 0,72 ?

Anyway, people do prefer the MP finder - but I think I had the same VF in my 2012(?) M7 and I have to say I never noticed the difference. In fact, if I hadn’t read about the ‘problem’ with the M6 finder online I would never have thought about it - still not 100% sure I know what the problem actually is, to be honest.

Edited by plasticman
Link to post
Share on other sites

The finders from the M4-2 and later had a small condenser lens removed as a cost saving measure.  It causes the M4-2 viewfinder and viewfinders found in subsequent models to flare under certain conditions.  I believe Leica put the small condenser lens back into the viewfinder of the MP and MA.  Any good Leica repair person or facility should be able to do this to earlier model cameras.  I saw a price of about $300 for this service but that was years ago.  The M3/2/4 and M5 all had the original condenser lens and their viewfinders do not suffer from the flare problem.  The flaring bothers some users and does not bother others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

3 hours ago, ktmrider2 said:

The finders from the M4-2 and later had a small condenser lens removed as a cost saving measure.  It causes the M4-2 viewfinder and viewfinders found in subsequent models to flare under certain conditions.  I believe Leica put the small condenser lens back into the viewfinder of the MP and MA.  Any good Leica repair person or facility should be able to do this to earlier model cameras.  I saw a price of about $300 for this service but that was years ago.  The M3/2/4 and M5 all had the original condenser lens and their viewfinders do not suffer from the flare problem.  The flaring bothers some users and does not bother others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello KTMrider2,

A small correction: The M2 thru M5 cameras (Including M1?) were manufactured with the appropriate condenser lens because the removal of the lens begins with the M4-2.

The M3 has a different optical system which does not flare like the condenser-less M4-2 cameras & its condenser-less later siblings tend to in certain situations.      

Best Regards,

Michael

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an M2, M4-P and M6. Other than the obvious difference in frame lines, the only difference I’ve ever noticed between the three viewfinders is that the M2 viewfinder has a slightly blueish tint. Seems like the viewfinder flare “issue” is much more prevalent on the internet discussion groups than in real life usage. 

Edited by BradS
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, plasticman said:

But in this case they are both 0,72 ?

Anyway, people do prefer the MP finder - but I think I had the same VF in my 2012(?) M7 and I have to say I never noticed the difference. In fact, if I hadn’t read about the ‘problem’ with the M6 finder online I would never have thought about it - still not 100% sure I know what the problem actually is, to be honest.

No, see the OP, the Millennium has a 0.85 finder.

Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, so M3 viewfinder was different.  It is the only Leica M film camera that I have owned just once and for less than a year (I think as that was about 1976).  After the Leica CL, I owned the M3 and then M4/2, M4/P, M6 and M6TTL, all purchased new.  Somewhere in there I discovered my favorite film M's, the M2 and M4.  Honestly, Leica got something right with the M2 and in my opinion, they could have stopped right there as the viewfinder is the best of them all.  I can live with the M4's viewfinder because the 135 frame lines are so small and I am using the 35 frame lines.  I think I am psychologically programmed to ignore the 135 frame lines.  I do like the film loading and rewind of the M4 over the removable spool of the M2 but I am happy with either M2 or M4 or M5 (which may be the best shooter of all).  Honestly, I could easily "force" myself to use any Leica film model including M4/2, M3, M4P, M6, M5, etc (you get my drift)..

I suspect. and predict that you will not be happy with just one.  They can become an addiction (hearing my wife laughing in the background).  Good hunting! And we have not even talked about the LTM models (got my first one in Oct, 2020, a 3f with collapsible 50 Summicron).

Edited by ktmrider2
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 2/2/2021 at 12:49 PM, BradS said:

I have an M2, M4-P and M6. Other than the obvious difference in frame lines, the only difference I’ve ever noticed between the three viewfinders is that the M2 viewfinder has a slightly blueish tint. Seems like the viewfinder flare “issue” is much more prevalent on the internet discussion groups than in real life usage. 

I personally experienced the recurrent annoying flare with my M6 but sold it when a second hand MP became available here (Brisbane, Australia) for a great price. IMHO I noticed a marked improvement with the MP finder.

Link to post
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, romualdo said:

I personally experienced the recurrent annoying flare with my M6 but sold it when a second hand MP became available here (Brisbane, Australia) for a great price. IMHO I noticed a marked improvement with the MP finder.

So how exactly do you get the flare to happen? Seen a lot of discussions and even googled this a few times, and people say they either find it a big problem or aren't troubled by it, but the exact way to provoke it (sideways to the sun? straight into the sun? etc) isn't clear to me. It's sunny here today so I thought I could try my M6TTL vs my M2, and see what all the fuss is about.

Obviously the M6 - even though NIB when I bought it - was an opened box, so maybe it's already been converted, but I doubt it. Can't say I ever noticed the problem with any of my previous M cameras either.

edit: this discussion is a classic of what I mean - a few people saying it's an insurmountable problem, others saying they've never seen it, or only "maybe a dozen times in 30 years of using a Leica":

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/tackling-m6-finder-flare-cheaply.456941/

PPS: can it maybe be worse for eyeglass wearers? (one suggestion in the thread above)

Edited by plasticman
an example discussion on another forum
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, plasticman said:

So how exactly do you get the flare to happen? Seen a lot of discussions and even googled this a few times, and people say they either find it a big problem or aren't troubled by it, but the exact way to provoke it (sideways to the sun? straight into the sun? etc) isn't clear to me. It's sunny here today so I thought I could try my M6TTL vs my M2, and see what all the fuss is about.

The flare that bothered me was not sun related but indoors near lighting - at times the whole viewfinder would "white-out" - has not happened with my M3 or MP

Also, I don't use glasses when shooting - have a diopter screwed into the eyepiece

The Andrew Nemeth article below may be helpful

https://www.nemeng.com/leica/020b.shtml

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, romualdo said:

The flare that bothered me was not sun related but indoors near lighting - at times the whole viewfinder would "white-out" - has not happened with my M3 or MP

Also, I don't use glasses when shooting - have a diopter screwed into the eyepiece

The Andrew Nemeth article below may be helpful

https://www.nemeng.com/leica/020b.shtml

Ah ye - I remember reading this article a few years ago.

I spent a few minutes at lunch pointing the camera around by the window trying to make something happen but obviously I'm. not competent enough to make the camera malfunction. 

  • Haha 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, wattsy said:

I think it is dependent upon how you position your eyeball in relation to the viewfinder. The more off centre, the more likely you get the whiteout – at least that is how I remember it.


I just moved my eye the smallest imaginable amount - probably less than a millimeter - and (for me) the ‘problem’ was solved. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Mani

I saw your other thread which is great so this can be discusses more freely so to speak (and hopefully help kill the internet myth that the M6/TTL viewfinder is very flawed). But I'll add my reply here just because it relates to what romualdo said below.

On my camera (and as I recall so many years afterwards) the problem was also much more common in indoor situations, though it did also happen outdoors. It all depended on the situation. And that was the main frustrating part - I couldn't find the reason so it would always bother me when I least suspected it. On my camera the focus patch would go completely white and make focusing impossible. It rarely helped to move my eye around. And if it sometimes did the moment would inevitably be lost. For that reason it was worth it to get the upgrade done and the camera never 'flares' like this anymore.

I do accept of course that it is a personal thing and that my eyes might be more sensitive to it somehow.

 

On 2/9/2021 at 2:52 PM, romualdo said:

The flare that bothered me was not sun related but indoors near lighting - at times the whole viewfinder would "white-out" - has not happened with my M3 or MP

Also, I don't use glasses when shooting - have a diopter screwed into the eyepiece

The Andrew Nemeth article below may be helpful

https://www.nemeng.com/leica/020b.shtml

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Just come back from a walk along the Thames with my new M6 TTL Black paint millennium. Oh my goodness, I have never used such a beautiful camera in my life. It feels perfect, the wind on is like a watch and soo easy to focus and change the SS to track exposure. I've used a digital M for a few years and film in an OM SLR, but the film M is exquisite.....

 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...