Really, new cheap(er) film M in 2021 ?

[UltraDan]

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22 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

I hope you are right, (maybe £500 less ?).

Yeah I mean £2500 - £3000 would be amazing and what I'd really prefer but this is Leica and we are in the middle of super inflated prices in the used market so I can't see it myself but we live in hope! 

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[nitroplait]

Leica don't even have the production capacity to make enough MP/M-A to satisfy demand, why would they use capacity they don't have to make a cheaper camera?

What would be the point of a cheaper camera? Sell lenses? - they have terminated their "discount" line and it is unlikely that the customer segment that would be interested in cheap M camera would want to buy lenses from the current lineup -as someone else have already noted.

There are still plenty sub $1500 M bodies available in good condition, plenty of non-leica lens options and there are at least 3 current manufactures of small accessory-shoe light meters to mount on them.

If anything, the discontinuation of the summarit line shows that Leica is not interested in moving into the "lower end" of the market.

As fun as it is to speculate, this rumour will remain a rumour.

[a.noctilux]

Hoping Leica can surprise us,

I'm not waiting for one, of course, so neutral for me new cheaper M or NOT

 

[andym91]

Just dreaming but wouldn't a 6x6 or 6x4.5 rangefinder from Leica be THE surprise!

Would love to see them stepa away from 35mm and get into bigger negatives.

Could be fixed lens or interchangable, now thats something I would consider.

A cheaper film M?...Why, there's enough around on the market.

 

just a thought

 

[earleygallery]

4 minutes ago, andym91 said:

Just dreaming but wouldn't a 6x6 or 6x4.5 rangefinder from Leica be THE surprise!

Would love to see them stepa away from 35mm and get into bigger negatives.

Could be fixed lens or interchangable, now thats something I would consider.

A cheaper film M?...Why, there's enough around on the market.

 

just a thought

 

I think they're more likely to go smaller - 110 film, it's the future!

[andym91]

Or a Polaroid instant...how cool would that be 😉

[a.noctilux]

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5 minutes ago, andym91 said:

Or a Polaroid instant...how cool would that be 😉

SO FORT ?

[andym91]

7 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

SO FORT ?

I'm clearly behind my time😂

[David8]

A Barnack sized mechanical Leica is what a lot of aficionados would hanker for. Something you could lug all day and not feel the shoulders hurt. 

I hope Leica can make that camera. 

[a.noctilux]

On 5/2/2021 at 2:39 PM, David8 said:

A Barnack sized mechanical Leica is what a lot of aficionados would hanker for. Something you could lug all day and not feel the shoulders hurt. 

I hope Leica can make that camera. 

Genius idea,

 

in this case, I'd change my mind to buy one 👌

another new LTM would not hurt.

...

Not so long ago, Cosina had done that then move to M mount later.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

another new LTM would not hurt.

Who knows, maybe we get one for the 100th anniversary of the Leica I in four years.

[frakaphoto]

As a Leica M user since 20 years  ( all of them form M2 to Ma, all digital too) I really hope that somebofy will start again  a new line of M mount camera for film.

I think that it is possible to make it viable if you concentrate in it some new technology as most of electronic 35 mm camera are not working anymore and are impossible to repair: ( contax, ricoh...) but are the most desirable one. Avoid the all mecanic...too costly , and not so usefull.

Dreaming about a light body with electronic shutter, manual speed and A priority like the M 7 / M8/ M9 / M10 . ( just the speed in the visor)

Manual iso setting, electronic shutter ( high speed 2000 , optical viewfinder with electronic  rangefinder ( a sort of mix of micro projection ) .

All build with simple engineering, simple battery...we are in 2021 !

If Leica could not do it , cossina has to do it or fuji.... if not  people like 7 artisan should look on that market,,,, 

please....please keep it simple... not too much innovation, just use the excellent idea all around camera allready existing. siplicity...

( remember minox 35 mm ? ...let’s do it in plastic with M mount....cell phone parts for the OVF...fuji....help ! )

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by frakaphoto

[IkarusJohn]

Interesting concept.

I think the starting point has to be demand.  For what?  Well, film cameras - especially Leicas.  Leica can’t meet demand for the M-A or the MP, and it seems (anecdotally) they don’t have the staff skilled in film cameras anymore.  But, it seems with demand and secondhand prices, there is a market for more film Leicas.  

Why would they be cheaper?  Production seems to be a problem for Leica, so do they increase production of the M-A & MP?  Do they introduce a new film camera as an entry drug?  Or do they replace the old M-A & MP with a new film camera?  I have no idea.

But, I do think it’s pretty clear that Leica could produce a new film camera at a reduced price, in Europe, using increased automation and a simplified design.  What would it have?  An M mount, at a minimum.  I guess a rangefinder (cause M means mesßucher, right …).  Shutter.  Film transport. Meter - it has to have a meter …. All that could be cnc machined from a billet of aluminium (hand rubbed on a woman’s thigh), with a traditional film transport and the whole thing at far reduced cost if Leica moved away from the whole M3 gestalt.

So, would it be a cheaper entry drug, to get people into M lenses and aspire to the M-A & MP, or would it replace them?  Either way, a new film Leica at a reduced price would wreak havoc on used M film camera prices, and would drive up used M lens prices (again).  That might encourage Leica to produce some cheaper film lenses as well.

Meanwhile, the M-A & MP would still have demand, and would be something to aspire to, with some lovely new, fast Leica glass.

What’s not to like?

[RayD28]

What is a "cheap" price?  

[Guest]

Well there was the Leica M "alternative option" camera, the Voigtlander Bessa R4M and the R4A, ( also the preceding R2's and R3's ). They were really good cameras, I still have a R4A, and as well as having an excellent RF the the VF would also go down to 21mm which was the main reason I bought mine in the first place. Why Leica stopped at 28mm has always been a mystery to me as I prefer wider angle lenses on a M/rangefinder body.......35mm being my "normal".

Anyway R4-A/M production stopped around 2016 I think but they are still available second-hand of course even though I notice that a "mint" copy is probably going for more than what I paid for mine new years ago. Such is the crazy world of cameras. 

[a.noctilux]

I'm not in the secret 😎.

If this is not done yet, I'd suggest 2 opposite routes  ( if we-I think hard enough, the two why not ) :

a- traditional mechanical M, to be cheaper with less (or more depending on production cost) features, cost effective production if possible

b- inspiring by Minolta CLE and/or Konica Hexar RF ( motorized, 1/4000 shutter ) those two 'electronic wonders' of their time, some people = me would not buy,

never mind, I use the originals, CLE & RF for many years (decades) now without fear and they are reliable enough for me to keep them for a good while

Edited October 14, 2021 by a.noctilux

[RayD28]

I've followed this thread intermittently and asked this question before, but what is a "cheap price"?  

"Cheap" is subjective but I'll propose --- $1,500.  Anything more and you step into used-camera price ranges for M3s and subsequent film models.  And the build quality has to be as good or better than used film M cameras with a fresh CLA. 

At what price point would any of us strongly consider passing up a good user-grade M2 for a brand new and "cheap" M?  

[adan]

Tha sounds just a little like arguing that since one can find a "user classic" VW Beetle for <$800, VW should price a brand-new exact replica of the classic Beetle at no more than $750.

(Note: in checking prices, beware of restorations or "New Beetle" prices - they, of course, are much, much higher than "user" condition 1960s street-Beetles).

This little girl usually sits across the parking lot from my go-to camera shop - I just love the cracking, peeling paint textures for lens trials. M-10, 28mm Elmarit v.4.

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The target competition for a new-cheap film M is not a used M2, but used M6 variants: metered, quick-load and rewind crank, full set of framelines 28-135.

Which are going for $2500-$3500 (with a few outliers).

And then adding 2-year factory warranty, 10-year commitment for parts support, true "mint" condition (factory-fresh).

I think Leica might just be able to do $3995.00 by putting MP parts into a casing like the M6's (stamped-zinc top and bottom plates, always a red dot, "any color you want so long as it's anthracite," no classic engraving on the top, and no frame-preview lever. That is about a 25% discount from the MP.

And the $495 premium over a "minty used M6," for the warranty and actual "new" condition is not out of line.

I don't think Leica will cheapen the brand beyond that. Remember that the "Rolex digital Sub-Oyster-Tron" was - an April-Fool's joke.

https://monochrome-watches.com/rolex-joins-smartwatch-race/

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[RayD28]

I get your point, Dan. A new M-6’ish camera at $4,000 will cause some people to skip an M-6, but that price point is close to a user grade MA or MP, without the warranty of course. 

My M2 example is based on $1,500.  I based this on the low side of the cheap spectrum because, well, I’m cheap. 😀 

[Herr Barnack]

Why are vintage film M camera prices on such a rampage?  What is causing this?  Is it simply supply and demand, or is there more to it?

I don't shoot much film these days, but I'm glad I got a mint M4-P 10+ years ago when prices were within reason.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Herr Barnack