A New Year Wish for the M System

[fotografr]

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1 minute ago, adan said:

Oh, goody! Focus peaking!

Just what I want in my viewfinder - a 4-year-old's crayon scribbles all over my potential pictures.

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Exactly!!!

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[astrostl]

2 hours ago, mujk said:

I don't really see why Leica would start producing EVF-only M-mount cameras without introducing (or having plans on introducing ) a new series of M-mount lenses with electronic coupling, at least for aperture control, possibly also focus confirmation/autofocus.

An EVF-only body without any coupling with the lens (other than possibly the optical lens code) is in my mind functionally equivalent to adapting lenses. This is, of course, a fully working solution, but not the basis for a commerciably viable camera system with a future.

I don't see why they would. As in this thread, I regularly see folks wishing for a full-frame M mount body with an EVF but I can't recall a single person saying that they want electronic aperture, focus-by-wire, or autofocus in M lenses. And this stuff already exists with the CL, SL, etc.

[cirke]

I have a CL and a SL2 they are not a replacement for the M

id buy at once a QM but never again a RF as I said for me it’s from another age 

[Cobram]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

Sorry if I offended some of you by throwing the EVF debate. Let's face the truth, there are two groups of people. Those who want the EVF, those who don't. None is right or wrong. And let's face another truth, the evf IS coming sooner or later. 

If I may, I am going to change a little the direction of this thread. My new year wish for the M system is: an M10P (body and shutter) with the sensor of my SL2-S. 

I just spent one month travelling with my SL2S, put it through tough times, and I am amazed by the sensor. It's far superior to everything I've even seen on any brand. Far superior to the SL2 as well. 

If they put that in an M, this would be the perfect stills camera. And if they do add that EVF... NIRVANA 

@Steven Thank you for your feedback regarding SL2s. Can you share with us which combo you used more, sl2s+m lenses or sl2s+sl summicron lenses? Did the weight and size caused you any problems during the trip?

[fotografr]

9 hours ago, cirke said:

I have a CL and a SL2 they are not a replacement for the M

id buy at once a QM but never again a RF as I said for me it’s from another age 

The fact that something is from another age doesn't mean it isn't good. For me, the M rangefinder is in the same category as this Macallan sherry. It might be old, but it's still fantastic.

 

 

 

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Edited February 21, 2021 by fotografr

[cirke]

1 hour ago, fotografr said:

The fact that something is from another age doesn't mean it isn't good. For me, the M rangefinder is in the same category as this Macallan sherry. It might be old, but it's still fantastic.

 

 

 

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Of course ! we can still do egg painting today, even if Van Eyck in 1450 changed everything. 

[Dennis]

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Reading the M10 Phillippe Reeve's review you linked previously in this post, I found the conclusion such a very strong statement, oh my. I'm quoting here:

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OPTIONAL

When buying a Leica M10 you do not spend ~7.000€ on a camera. The camera is not worth 7.000€. You spend this amount of money to be a part of the Leica cult. To have a reason to go to the fancy Leica Boutiques, to be invited to events in Wetzlar, to put it on the table in a nice café and have other people look at that beautiful piece of mechanical engineering. This is also what appeals to me personally most: the unobstrusive stylized look compared to other modern cameras.
You also buy into a story. A story from a time, where those rangefinder cameras offered clear technical advantages over other camera systems, especially in terms of size but also speed of operation. Those times are long gone. 

While it is clearly possible to take good pictures with a digital Leica camera, you have to be a mix of sentimentalist and masochist to enjoy that whole process, especially so, when you are used to any modern camera from Japan. So would I recommend to get this (or any digital M) Leica camera?

If you care most about the image quality of your pictures and getting the shot: No.
If you don’t care about the money and you enjoy the rangefinder cameras because you have already used them 40 years ago: sure, get one. 

 

The Leica M10 is not the camera I long for when there is a “job to be done” (unless the job is getting sample images for the review of a new lens). It is the camera I take out with a small lens when I am not sure I even will be taking pictures. Stroll through the city, walk in the forest, meeting some friends (not so much in 2020…), these kind of things.

The Leica M10 is a camera that today no photographer needs, but thanks to great marketing, brand image and history many want.
This is true for most luxury items – nothing wrong with that by my book – but nevertheless helps to be aware that this is exactly what the Leica M10 is: a luxury item (that takes pictures).

END

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My new year wishes for M

• a new 40/2 Summicron with custom 40mm frame lines
• A la carte option for single frame lines
• A better way to manage the menu user profiles
• Same BW high iso capabilities for the color sensors 

I understand and respect people wanting EVF in an M camera. If there would be a better Visoflex, I would probably buy it to use when needed. The reason why I choose Leica it's not because I can, it's because I prefer it. I'm not a masochist (as said above). Maybe I'm a purist. And I love the idea of taking the camera, working entirely in manual, guesstimate the right exposure w/o even look in the OVF, maybe pre-focus if possible, and compose and shoot. Oh yeah! Such a pleasure. I enjoy a lot the process of shooting with M, even more than mirrorless and DSLR. It represents for me the essence of what photography is. 

In the end, that I disagree with Phillipe Reeve. I use the M10 when there is a "job to be done" and w/o EVF. Of course 🙂
Good vibes and happy Sunday

 

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Dennis

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

I don't really agree with this. I focus way better and faster with my SL2 than with my M in the street. But yes, RF will always be more precise, especially stopped down, as that's when things become complicated with an EVF. 

I have loved using RF with M bodies since the 80’s. Fast and easy with my limited range of FLs.. 28/35/50 Summicrons and Summiluxes. I don’t own the mediocre accessory EVF. But accurate RF focusing requires precise calibration of both the lens and RF mechanism, especially with digital. A technical challenge. An EVF, however, focuses directly off the sensor, so a good one with a magnified live view will be more accurate... WYSIWYG. I set up my SL2 to turn off distracting peaking, but to engage magnification when I manually twist focus ring (if I choose to), then return to full view with shutter press.  Speed aside, it’s more accurate than a less than perfectly calibrated digital M and lens.

Jeff

[evikne]

3 hours ago, Steven said:

I don't really agree with this. I focus way better and faster with my SL2 than with my M in the street. But yes, RF will always be more precise, especially stopped down, as that's when things become complicated with an EVF. 

I didn't actually say that a RF is more precise (because it usually isn't), but for fast, manual focus nothing gives you a better confirmation of a correctly focused image. I have never tried an SL, but the principle should be the same with any EVF: I never really know when a picture is perfectly in focus and therefore I often turn the focus ring back and forth several times. But with the RF I just snap the two viewfinder images together and I immediately know that the focus is where it should be. 

[Dennis]

For all of us having wishes.

Is "Leica" actually observe/listen/read to what we say here? Is there someone here in LUF (among admins, testers, influencers, executives, or whoever) spreading the voice, or already started to work on our wishes? I really hope yes. Wishes without goals, or help, are just wishes 🙂 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Dennis

[jpattison]

44 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Is "Leica" actually observe/listen/read to what we say here? Does the brand know about our wishes? Is there someone here in LUF (among admins, testers, influencers, executives, or whoever) spreading the voice, or already started to work on them? I really hope yes. Wishes without goals, or help, are just wishes 🙂 

Yes, they silently observe.

Dr Kaufmann is a member of this forum. I was introduced to him once on a visit to an evening with Nick Ut, and the girl he photographed  Phan Thi Kim Phuc, presented by Leica Store Manchester. He asked me which was my favourite lens and we discussed what I was interested in photographing with my Leicas.

I've also visited the Wetzlar Leica complex and the history of Leica thrives in every employee. Also throughout the town. Leitz Heimat. Some of us value that above mere technology for technology's sake.

John

Edited February 21, 2021 by jpattison
additional.

[Dennis]

11 minutes ago, Steven said:

it similar as looking at real life.

When you are manually focusing with an M coupled lens on a SL-2, in the moment you turn the focus ring, what does happen actually happen inside the EVF, what do you see? What the options are to assist you in focusing?

I hope not like this post #372 ... LOL

 

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Edited February 21, 2021 by Dennis

[Dennis]

7 minutes ago, jpattison said:

Yes, they silently observe.

Awesome ... There are many great ideas just in this thread. 

[jpattison]

Who needs sharp focus ...

https://medium.com/history-of-yesterday/the-story-of-the-napalm-girl-and-the-photographer-who-saved-her-life-5b9f61229d58

 

[evikne]

8 minutes ago, Steven said:

Nope, this is why I did mention that the M peaking is the worst of all systems. It's thick, disgusting, an unusable. 

The SL2 has more refiner focus peaking. The lines are thiner and according to the lens you use and wether it has a longer focus throw or shorter, you can set the thickness of the lines.... On a 50mm for example, if the eye is in focus, you see the eye red. If it's the eyelash, you see the eyelash in red. The best part of is that the focus peaking covers the entire frame, so you can see what's in focus anywhere in your frame at any moment, while the RF only shows you in the middle. 

With a short press on the joystick or the thumbwheel, you instantly zoom in for confirmation, if needed, but the resilton of the EVF is so high that I personally rarely need to zoom in ! It's just so fast and pleasant to use. 

I hope for a future Visoflex with a similar performance. It would have given us the best of both worlds. But it will probably require a new generation of M cameras as well.

[lct]

2 hours ago, evikne said:

I hope for a future Visoflex with a similar performance. It would have given us the best of both worlds. But it will probably require a new generation of M cameras as well.

A Visoflex like this would compete with the SL system so i would not hold my breath. Leica has always launched sub-par accessory EVFs, which fits well the das Wesentliche philosophy . More seriously there is not enough room for high end EVFs if the rangefinder is not removed i suspect but i may be wrong.

[Guest]

I was one of the lucky ones.

I knew i was buying a rangefinder camera when bought my M.

[setuporg]

On 2/19/2021 at 6:07 PM, astrostl said:

To remind, the context was this: "But i fail to see how [an EVF is] better for accurate focus compared to a rangefinder?"

In what context?  Of a potentially moving scene?  If you are a retiree on an Iceland cruise and have all the time in the universe to focus on that rock, or you're on the streets of the Overgärd Town where moments are fleeting?:)

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[setuporg]

On 2/20/2021 at 11:57 AM, mujk said:

At least it did not do so for e.g. Leica R and Hasselblad V series lenses

I was looking for the widest quality lens for the Hasselblad V + CFV 50 IIC, and found the 40mm CFI, in addition to a few of others.  So now their future is suddenly brighter! I got a 150mm Sonnar used by a lady who traveled all over the world, in a pristine condition and original thick pouch.  I got a 250mm Sonnar in its bubble case from Japan that seems new.  Their build and the miracle of a digital back for the V system makes them an amazing addition to any vintage-style photographer.  And the quality is outstanding.  The total cost of the whole V system would be less than a 28mm M Lux.

[cirke]

5 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

I was one of the lucky ones.

I knew i was buying a rangefinder camera when bought my M.

I am sorry for you 😀

Edited February 22, 2021 by cirke