Leica SL2-S Survey

[waytoosquirrelly]

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On 12/15/2020 at 3:00 AM, LUF Admin said:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Last week Leica Camera introduced the new Leica SL2-S:

• Leica SL2-S: Versatile Alternative with 24MP Sensor
• Jono Slack Review: Leica SL2-S

Our question to you:

Are you interested in buying the Leica SL2-S?

Please vote above und discuss below.

Looking forward to your opinion!

I've been a fan of the Leica M system since l954 when my dad couldn't afford the new Leica M3.  The M3 cost $300 at the time.  I might've considered the Leica SL2 when it first came out because, with an adaptor, it did work with Leica M lenses.  I didn't trade my M10 in on an SL2 because, simply, I thought the SL2 was just ugly.  Why didn't Leica make the SL2 look like the R8 and the R9?  I still think the R8 and R9 are beautiful cameras.

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[SJH]

I really do like Leica but it seems like Deja Vu, a year on and they still haven’t sorted the battery warning issue with the SL2 and the AF has fallen behind even Panasonic, rather than try and fix all of this they then bring out the SL2-S as the ‘new hybrid’. You can already initial reports of woeful AF performance in video (worse than Panasonic). Still’s seem really superb of course but again they’ve just transferred the same now ‘bottom placed’ AF system.

I love my M’s and I’ve shot the SL2 all over the world, when I fist bought it the Canon R5 & R6 didn’t really exist so the main competition was the Sony’s. Superb AF and range of glass but woeful in everything else from build to menu’s. Along come Canon though and solve most of those, ergonomics wise still not quite a Leica SL2 but coming close and with vastly superior AF and video. It’s making me think and when an R5 is the same price as the SL2-S well ..........?

[Archiver]

On 12/17/2020 at 12:16 AM, Steven said:

By me and others. They perform exactly the same as the M series, EXCEPT, that there is Ibis, therefore they perform better. 

If this is true, then this is my next M-body, with the added bonus of being able to use autofocus lenses. The SL2-S is less expensive at full retail than a secondhand M10, even here in Australia.

[Archiver]

On 12/17/2020 at 4:00 PM, Jim B said:

Of Course. Using Leica SL lenses no adapters ...... lots of people post about the problem.  I think Leica even spoke about it in an article or video. It’s a design flaw power issue they have no idea how to fix, so they created  the error message. Who ever heard of a camera that can’t high speed burst shoot at 3/4 full battery. It’s truly shameful!    Do you have an Sl2?  Use it on Photo shoot, then decide to high speed burst and the camera will error out. 

This is verging on a dealbreaker for me, as I intend to use the SL2-S for sports and action photography. While I do a lot of the usual documentary, street, portraits and landscape, spending this much money means it needs to bring value to paid jobs. I sincerely hope this issue is fixed in the SL2-S, or it's off to the Canon R6 or even the Panasonic S1.

[Archiver]

On 12/17/2020 at 2:13 PM, J12 said:

The new redesigned body introduced with the SL2 / SL2-S would be my biggest hesitation. I simply prefer the original SL 601. It’s been mentioned before, but the industrial design of the original SL 601 feels superior with its clean and simple execution and 4 button interface. The design of the original SL was a remarkable achievement that set a very high standard as the first model in this new range of cameras.

It looks like compromises have been made with the redesign of the SL2 / SL2-S body. The protruding rear screen (no longer flush with the body) and its change to 3 buttons. Seemingly borrowed from the CL parts bin and stuck on. The change from all aluminum unibody to construction with cleanly integrated strap lugs. Now just a decorative aluminum top plate which is not structurally integral to the camera body as it was with the SL. Resulting in the crude implementation of large strap lugs lower down on the side. The horseshoe collar around the lens mount also seems unnecessary and references old Single Lens Reflex cameras with mirror assemblies, which the SL series is not. The flat front facia of the original SL seemed to more clearly signify the distinction between mirrorless and SLR.

I have to ask if you have handled and shot with a SL2 at all? I own neither, but have handled and shot with both for an hour or two each (thank you to my local shop) and the SL2 feels much better in my hands than the original SL. The SL feels blocky and sharp, whereas the SL2 sits much more nicely in the hand, despite having very similar dimensions. Something about the way the grips are shaped. And I prefer a few more buttons with labels, but that's a personal liking.

[LocalHero1953]

I had the SL since launch, and have had the SL2 for a few months - TBH I didn't notice much difference in handholding, apart from a slight improvement to the finger grip. I used a handstrap with both, so rely on a comfortable finger grip. Maybe my hands are just the right size, but I didn't have a problem with the SL grip.

As to looks, I wasn't a great fan of the brutalist SL, though appreciated its form=function style.

[Tp2000]

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3 hours ago, Archiver said:

This is verging on a dealbreaker for me, as I intend to use the SL2-S for sports and action photography. While I do a lot of the usual documentary, street, portraits and landscape, spending this much money means it needs to bring value to paid jobs. I sincerely hope this issue is fixed in the SL2-S, or it's off to the Canon R6 or even the Panasonic S1.

From my experience with the SL2 and a brief play around with the SL2S, I'd say there isn't (today) much difference between either for Auto focus and, from using the SL2, isn't good enough for sports and action. Too many missed shots and it only really worked in perfect conditions. 

Thats more of an issue than the 3/4 battery "feature".

 

As for handing, having used the SL and SL2, I found the SL2 "feels" smaller as a result of the redesign, but like @LocalHero1953 it may jsut be that my mitts are the right size and shape. 

 

 

[Dr. G]

17 hours ago, SJH said:

I really do like Leica but it seems like Deja Vu, a year on and they still haven’t sorted the battery warning issue with the SL2 and the AF has fallen behind even Panasonic, rather than try and fix all of this they then bring out the SL2-S as the ‘new hybrid’. You can already initial reports of woeful AF performance in video (worse than Panasonic). Still’s seem really superb of course but again they’ve just transferred the same now ‘bottom placed’ AF system.

I love my M’s and I’ve shot the SL2 all over the world, when I fist bought it the Canon R5 & R6 didn’t really exist so the main competition was the Sony’s. Superb AF and range of glass but woeful in everything else from build to menu’s. Along come Canon though and solve most of those, ergonomics wise still not quite a Leica SL2 but coming close and with vastly superior AF and video. It’s making me think and when an R5 is the same price as the SL2-S well ..........?

I am so on the fence.  My Leica store called and said that my SL2-S arrived and I can collect it tomorrow.  I picked up the R5 and the RF 50 1.2 last week as I wasn't completely happy with the AFc performance of the SL2 (there's a whole other thread about this which basically said not to use AFc).  The RF 50 1.2 on the r5 is very good.  There's something I still love better about my SL2 and APO Summicron lenses.  Is it worth keeping two systems for?  I'm not sure.  But I was hoping that the SL2-S would make me forget about the R5 and be wholly invested in Leica.  

So I'm not sure what I will do tomorrow morning when I'm supposed to pick up the SL2-S.  There's a part of me that knows the APO Summicron-SL glass is superb but the bodies aren't up to the AF performance where they need to be (for what I do).  As crazy as it seems, I'm almost thinking of selling the SL2 and keeping all my Leica glass, hoping that the next generation bodies will use PDAF.  There's no doubt that the glass will easily resolve whatever body Leica develops next.

[oka]

I wasn’t too thrilled about SL2.

My primary use for the SL body is wedding where I use with M glass. SL2 resolution allows cropping and allows using fewer lenses but the main issues where there where I hoped to be some improvements compared to the original SL.

I rarely shoot in low iso and my primary interests are good dr in high iso and the speediness of the camera.

None were great on SL2.

AF was also surprisingly terrible but that is not deal breaker as I mainly use M lenses on it.

Also battery life seemed to be even worse than in original SL with much discussed burst problems.

I’ve just picked up the SL2-S and while I can’t give any detailed impressions, the high iso dr and speediness of the body is noticeably better than in SL2.

I can take long bursts and playback the images immediately without any hiccups which is great on intense shootings.

DR seems to hold really well up to ISO 12800 which is crucial as SL glasses are bit slower than peers AF glasses. With f1.2-1.4 glasses I usually crank ISO up to 6400 and if SL2-S can take up to 12800 I can use slower Summicron-SL glasses as I was using faster lenses in darker environments.

I also really like the new lettering, I was never too fond the SL bodies big noticeable logo size in the front of the camera. Now while it’s still big, it’s really discrete on normal use.

During the Christmas break I’ll test it against SL2, M10R, M10P and M10M and report back.

...but right now I’m puzzled with questions.

1. Why Leica didn’t use sensor used in M10R on SL2 and why SL2 sensor where especially in DR is much worse than in Panasonic where it uses basically same sensor. It’s probably worst in that regard to any 40+mpx bodies in currently available by large margin.

2. How it’s possible that SL2-S has improved so much on the battery life

3. Was the SL2-S a merely “bug fix” for the SL2?

...well time will tell.

[Dr. G]

50 minutes ago, oka said:

I wasn’t too thrilled about SL2.

My primary use for the SL body is wedding where I use with M glass. SL2 resolution allows cropping and allows using fewer lenses but the main issues where there where I hoped to be some improvements compared to the original SL.

I rarely shoot in low iso and my primary interests are good dr in high iso and the speediness of the camera.

None were great on SL2.

AF was also surprisingly terrible but that is not deal breaker as I mainly use M lenses on it.

Also battery life seemed to be even worse than in original SL with much discussed burst problems.

I’ve just picked up the SL2-S and while I can’t give any detailed impressions, the high iso dr and speediness of the body is noticeably better than in SL2.

I can take long bursts and playback the images immediately without any hiccups which is great on intense shootings.

DR seems to hold really well up to ISO 12800 which is crucial as SL glasses are bit slower than peers AF glasses. With f1.2-1.4 glasses I usually crank ISO up to 6400 and if SL2-S can take up to 12800 I can use slower Summicron-SL glasses as I was using faster lenses in darker environments.

I also really like the new lettering, I was never too fond the SL bodies big noticeable logo size in the front of the camera. Now while it’s still big, it’s really discrete on normal use.

During the Christmas break I’ll test it against SL2, M10R, M10P and M10M and report back.

...but right now I’m puzzled with questions.

1. Why Leica didn’t use sensor used in M10R on SL2 and why SL2 sensor where especially in DR is much worse than in Panasonic where it uses basically same sensor. It’s probably worst in that regard to any 40+mpx bodies in currently available by large margin.

2. How it’s possible that SL2-S has improved so much on the battery life

3. Was the SL2-S a merely “bug fix” for the SL2?

...well time will tell.

I've been thinking about it all night.  I think I'm going to collect the SL2-S tomorrow morning.  For tripod and architecture/landscape use the SL2 is an amazing camera.  From what I've seen so far from the SL2-S files I think it's closer to the original SL I had with the added benefit of low light performance for moving subjects, IBIS and slightly better color saturation.

[J12]

20 hours ago, Archiver said:

I have to ask if you have handled and shot with a SL2 at all? I own neither, but have handled and shot with both for an hour or two each (thank you to my local shop) and the SL2 feels much better in my hands than the original SL. The SL feels blocky and sharp, whereas the SL2 sits much more nicely in the hand, despite having very similar dimensions. Something about the way the grips are shaped. And I prefer a few more buttons with labels, but that's a personal liking.

Yes I’ve had the chance to pick up and play with the SL2. It’s not so much the feel of the camera in the hands. I was fine with the original SL and the SL2 also feels comfortable to hold.

My comment was on how the industrial design of the SL is very cohesive and clean in execution. A few of the revisions made to the SL2 body look like a muddle of parts that don’t really belong. Perhaps a very small point in the grand scheme of things, but enough of an irritation to dampen my enthusiasm for the camera.  

Spec wise both the SL2 and SL2-S look good and appear to be steps in the right direction for mirrorless bodies. Either the SL2 or SL2-S are probably good propositions for those new to the system. Personally, I’m not sure I can justify either yet as I already own an SL, and it remains a very good camera.

We are very much in the era of diminishing returns when it comes to improvements in digital camera tech. With the global shift towards sustainability being promoted and supported by many companies large and small, maybe we should try harder to make things last. Considering both of these points, then perfecting the design of a camera body could well give it a longer life beyond each incremental and short-lived improvement in tech specs.

It was no doubt the design and quality of cameras like the M3 that ensured the M line continued as long as it has. People still value these cameras and want to shoot with them, as they’re simply a joy to use. Even if long outdated and superseded by newer models.

I know you can’t really compare film with digital. But, at what point do we reach a stage where the general performance of digital is good enough, and it becomes more about the shooting experience or unique characteristics of the camera or sensor?

Many of the tech / performance orientated specs and features being touted by manufacturers are increasingly crutches. Conveniences, yes, but not really as essential as they’d like everyone to believe. Just look back through history at the decades of great photographs and films made with much lesser equipment than being offered today.

[SJH]

6 hours ago, Dr. G said:

I am so on the fence.  My Leica store called and said that my SL2-S arrived and I can collect it tomorrow.  I picked up the R5 and the RF 50 1.2 last week as I wasn't completely happy with the AFc performance of the SL2 (there's a whole other thread about this which basically said not to use AFc).  The RF 50 1.2 on the r5 is very good.  There's something I still love better about my SL2 and APO Summicron lenses.  Is it worth keeping two systems for?  I'm not sure.  But I was hoping that the SL2-S would make me forget about the R5 and be wholly invested in Leica.  

So I'm not sure what I will do tomorrow morning when I'm supposed to pick up the SL2-S.  There's a part of me that knows the APO Summicron-SL glass is superb but the bodies aren't up to the AF performance where they need to be (for what I do).  As crazy as it seems, I'm almost thinking of selling the SL2 and keeping all my Leica glass, hoping that the next generation bodies will use PDAF.  There's no doubt that the glass will easily resolve whatever body Leica develops next.

I feel your pain on this!! I love my APO lenses and the ergonomics of the SL2 but more and more I just have this nagging feeling that the launch of the SL2-S has been botched and it highlights the flaws of the SL2/-S system right now. Why not launch the camera with the actual firmware update and at the same time provide v3 to SL2 users, the flagship model. Where they are now is that they’ve handed the camera over to all the reviewers and outside the ‘fans of Leica’ reviews time and time again the AF issues come up. They also bring up and highlight the fact it’s not even on a par with Panasonic now.

This leave me wondering whether they’ll ever sort this on the current range (plus the battery issue which 12 months on is just daft) and that the R5, whilst not quite up to Leica ergonomics, has closed the gap considerably and is way better than the Sony’s have been. I have both and M10R and M10M which I adore (as well as most of the M glass of note) but I to am on the fence on my relationship with the current SL camera’s. Sort out the battery issue and provide a really decent AF firmware update for both the SL2 and SL2-S in early 2021 (and not nearly 2 years on from the launch of the SL2) and I could see myself wedded to this for years to come, if not the R6 & R5 combo are looking very attractive alongside my M’s.

[Slender]

5 hours ago, oka said:

2. How it’s possible that SL2-S has improved so much on the battery life

Well if your sensor produces half the pixel count and data the processor has to churn through, that is easily comprehensible.... Perhaps it translate to video too if the oversampling methos is more efficient than pixel mixing from 8K to 4K (4 times less pixels), but data rates on cards are similar.

The SL2 downscaled to 24mp gives matching results to SL2s in stills up to 6400-12500 iso

[Flyer]

Let's face it almost any camera takes excellent IQ, only a small amount of time when you Pixel peep can you see any meaningful difference. It all about the photographer and their ability to create a piece of work that meets their/clients needs. 

I just received the SL2-S and it hits all the sweet spots for me. I can use Sigma and Panasonic lenses without worrying about needing Leica lenses to resolve the high resolution sensor of the SL2. Also my iMac can process the images with ease and the ISO helps me with low light wildlife with the 100-400. So in a nutshell, versatility and the Leica feel whilst not breaking the bank. 

[Tom1234]

On 12/18/2020 at 4:50 AM, Archiver said:

If this is true, then this is my next M-body, with the added bonus of being able to use autofocus lenses. The SL2-S is less expensive at full retail than a secondhand M10, even here in Australia.

Check this out on the pricing subject…. it is an important topic for Leica going foward: 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Tom1234

[Dr. G]

49 minutes ago, Flyer said:

Let's face it almost any camera takes excellent IQ, only a small amount of time when you Pixel peep can you see any meaningful difference. It all about the photographer and their ability to create a piece of work that meets their/clients needs. 

I just received the SL2-S and it hits all the sweet spots for me. I can use Sigma and Panasonic lenses without worrying about needing Leica lenses to resolve the high resolution sensor of the SL2. Also my iMac can process the images with ease and the ISO helps me with low light wildlife with the 100-400. So in a nutshell, versatility and the Leica feel whilst not breaking the bank. 

As much as I mostly agree, even those I know with little photographic and image science knowledge somehow prefer the look of the images from the SL2/APO Summucron-SL 50mm to that of the Canon R5/Canon RF 50mm f1.2 when both images are made at f2.   I did a comparison on a tripod with a few different relatively non demanding images but unfortunately on one set the shutter speeds were slightly off as I was trying to match the histograms.  I’ve refrained from posting the comparison because I’ve witnessed some relative intolerance to even the mention of other systems in the forum.

if there’s interest in seeing them, let me know and I can message them privately for anyone to come to their own conclusion.  My observation is that both pairings are very sharp, the Canon pairing has smoother out of focus rendering, the Leica has better micro contrast and better texture in the highlights and shadows.  
 

I would post them if anyone wants to see them, but as I awake this morning I think I’m going to take the leap of faith and collect the SL2-S.

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, Tom1234 said:

Check this out on the pricing subject…. it is an important topic for Leica going foward: 

 

 

Yes, and that proposition led to instant unanimous agreement among the participants😁

[RBB]

5 hours ago, Steven said:

I can confirm to you two things. 
1. the battery of the sl2s is better than most mirrorless flagship of 2020 so far for me BUT I’ve only used it with MF lenses (M). I did intense shooting and video and the battery easily lasted the whole day. 
 

2. I was able to record video with less than 5% battery without issue. 

Did you also use M lenses for the 5% battery video test? I can imaging that a power consuming autofocus lens with OIS will bring on the same message.

If they fixed the "battery power not sufficient" for the SL2's there might be some hope for us SL2 users. Problem drives me sometimes crazy. Now always carry two extra full battery's.

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Hallo,

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[BernardC]

11 hours ago, oka said:

1. Why Leica didn’t use sensor used in M10R on SL2 and why SL2 sensor where especially in DR is much worse than in Panasonic where it uses basically same sensor. It’s probably worst in that regard to any 40+mpx bodies in currently available by large margin.

2. How it’s possible that SL2-S has improved so much on the battery life

3. Was the SL2-S a merely “bug fix” for the SL2?

1. Leica developed two versions of the SL2: one with 40MP and one with 47MP. The latter won-out, we don't know why. It may have had a lot to do with getting a product out faster.

1 (part 2). Are you seeing this in highlights, shadows, or both? Leica rates the sensor differently. Their ISO 50 is Panasonic's ISO 100, and so on all the way to ISO 25,000 (which behaves exactly the same as what Panasonic calls ISO 50,000). What this means in practice is that the SL2 has more shadow range than the S1-R, at the same nominal ISO, but it has less highlight range.

2. Different sensor, smaller images (less CPU and I/O)

3. Definitely not. The SL2 is for everyone who moaned and complained that Leica didn't offer a big-megapixel SL. The SL2-S is more of a traditional Leica camera: low-light, hand-held, etc... Same box, different contents.

[RBB]

16 minutes ago, Steven said:

Yes. 
i did try below 50% with an AF native lens and it worked fine. Not sure when sl2 users are getting the alert. 
 

thanks, happens at different moments, difficult to predict, with Sigma lenses sometimes below 70%, Panasonic 70-200 does better with 50% as critical, with native Leica 24-90 roughly at 25%.