M6: Film returned to canister at some point during shoot - blank roll

[new-m-york-6]

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Hi all, still new to the M6 (2 months) and experienced something for the first time. I believe I loaded the camera right when switching out film but noticed during shooting that it was advancing a bit too easily. When the roll was "done" it didn't get stuck at 35/36 like normal. I then tried to rewind and it was effortless so I opened up and the film was entirely in the canister. Today the lab said the roll was blank.

1) Has this happened to anyone?

2) I don't understand how this happened, maybe I didn't take enough shots to advance when loading? Why would the film go entirely back into the canister then?

3) If it advanced a few frames and I got shots, wouldn't those be on my negatives? How did it turn all blank.

Hopefully it was human error, RIP my shots.

 

[BradS]

Yup. Been there, done that more than once. User error.

I went back and re-read the instruction manual and tried again. You have to follow the directions and trust that the magic easy load thingy is gonna work...and it will.

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by BradS

[Jon Warwick]

It sounds like it’s possibly user error, and the end of the film didn’t thread onto the spool at all. This would also mean there is very little resistance when winding on.

A good way to know if the end of film is correctly positioned on spool is this .....when you wind on the film, you will see the rewind crank also turning around.

In addition, when loading new film, I tend to wind on a frame or two with the back open, just to be sure the end of film is spooled on correctly before closing up the back of the camera.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Jon Warwick

[250swb]

Don't be mean when you load the film, wind on one or two frames before closing the back. After closing the back wind on to #1 and take up any slack by winding the rewind crank back, if everything is ok you will feel resistance.

[spydrxx]

Get in the habit of doing the tricks mentioned above....every time. After a few months everything will become a habit with little likelihood of not getting things properly on the take-up reel. We've all been there.

[ktmrider2]

We have all done it.  If anyone says they have not, they must be using digital or have been in film for a few hours at most.  Hell, I used to shoot five or more rolls on some days as a photojournalist back in the 1970's and it sucks when it happens on assignment.  

As said here already, watch the rewind knob or crank to make sure the film is advancing.  In fact, you might consider taking the slack out of the film canister by rewinding the crank as soon as you replace the bottom and then make sure the rewind knob is rotating as you advance a couple frames to get past the leader.  Although slower, the film loading on the M2/M3 lesson the chance of film not advancing as you must thread the film manually unto the spool.

Now loading the LTM Leicas is a whole different kettle of fish!  I have to remember people like Capa did it at Omaha Beach during the Normandy invasion or DDD did it while under fire with the Marines at Chosin in Korea.  I don't think any of us are operating under those levels of stress!!!

Edited November 12, 2020 by ktmrider2

[TomB_tx]

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I don't recall this problem using my M4 (later M6) since 1968, since I realized that the "tulip" or take-up spool doesn't pull the film through the camera - instead the sprockets pull the film from the cassette and the spool simply winds up the slack off the sprocket side.

So rather than worry about seeing that the film is winding on the take-up spool, make sure that the teeth on the sprocket engage through the sprocket holes as the back is closed. Put the baseplate on and proceed to wind, and you'll see the rewind knob rotate after the slack in the cassette is taken up.

Most people also don't realize that the take-up spool rotates backwards from what you expect, so the film wraps farther around the sprocket and winds emulsion side OUT on the spool (or tulip). If you turn the spool by hand winding in the other direction it will reverse once you begin advancing, and can cause the film to raise up off the sprocket, causing problems.

[250swb]

So somebody manually turns the takeup spool backwards? Why, and who is this person?

But as always the difficulty in saying it has never happened to you is that eventually it could, history supports this. But the sprockets determine frame spacing which is why they are on a ratchet and can't move backwards unless the rewind lever is engaged, they don't transport the film. If the spool and film advance lever didn't pull the film throught the camera there wouldn't be a consistent wind and the film would have different rates of tightness as the film is used.

[Pyrogallol]

3 hours ago, ktmrider2 said:

We have all done it.  If anyone says they have not, they must be using digital or have been in film for a few hours at most.  Hell, I used to shoot five or more rolls on some days as a photojournalist back in the 1970's and it sucks when it happens on assignment.  

As said here already, watch the rewind knob or crank to make sure the film is advancing.  In fact, you might consider taking the slack out of the film canister by rewinding the crank as soon as you replace the bottom and then make sure the rewind knob is rotating as you advance a couple frames to get past the leader.  Although slower, the film loading on the M2/M3 lesson the chance of film not advancing as you must thread the film manually unto the spool.

Now loading the LTM Leicas is a whole different kettle of fish!  I have to remember people like Capa did it at Omaha Beach during the Normandy invasion or DDD did it while under fire with the Marines at Chosin in Korea.  I don't think any of us are operating under those levels of stress!!!

I am pretty sure that Capa was using a Contax. So he had to have a pocket to put the camera back in while he changed the film and tried not to drop the loose take up spool into the sand. Or maybe he just used a different camera and waiting until he was back in the returning landing craft before unloading the cameras.

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

So somebody manually turns the takeup spool backwards? Why, and who is this person?

But as always the difficulty in saying it has never happened to you is that eventually it could, history supports this. But the sprockets determine frame spacing which is why they are on a ratchet and can't move backwards unless the rewind lever is engaged, they don't transport the film. If the spool and film advance lever didn't pull the film throught the camera there wouldn't be a consistent wind and the film would have different rates of tightness as the film is used.

I know it's mechanically pretty simple, but it would be cool to have a drawing/animation/video showing how the wind/rewind process in the camera works.  Would make it easier to visualize.  

[250swb]

35 minutes ago, logan2z said:

I know it's mechanically pretty simple, but it would be cool to have a drawing/animation/video showing how the wind/rewind process in the camera works.  Would make it easier to visualize.  

RTFM, sorry this is as easy as it gets. The difficulty comes when people start to count. You've bought 36 exposures so damn it you are going to get 36 exposures, and you are going to get two more for free if you listen to people on the internet! Simply assume that winding the film on so you get one fewer frame Is better than mistakenly getting 36 fewer grames and you'll be good to go.

[ktmrider2]

Well, I have never used a Contax and actually have no idea what film loading is like in that camera.  However I am pretty certain that film loading in ANY 35mm camera made in the 1930's or early 1940's would not be as easy as a Leica M.  I actually think the point was about stress in combat and if Capa and DDD can do it, we mere mortals should be able to accomplish the same thing.

Edited November 12, 2020 by ktmrider2

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

RTFM, sorry this is as easy as it gets. The difficulty comes when people start to count. You've bought 36 exposures so damn it you are going to get 36 exposures, and you are going to get two more for free if you listen to people on the internet! Simply assume that winding the film on so you get one fewer frame Is better than mistakenly getting 36 fewer grames and you'll be good to go.

You seem to have gone off half, er, cocked  

I've read the manual and know how to load film in an M camera. Been doing it for years and have never mis-loaded a roll.  What I was saying was that it would be interesting to see a visualization of what the camera is doing internally as the film is wound on/off and advanced frame by frame i.e. the mechanics of the winding lever, rewind (R) button, rewind crank, tulip etc.  I wasn't referring to visual instructions on how to load film into the camera. 

Edited November 12, 2020 by logan2z

[Jon Warwick]

On 11/11/2020 at 10:45 PM, spydrxx said:

After a few months everything will become a habit with little likelihood of not getting things properly on the take-up reel. We've all been there.

Fortunately I’ve never had a problem with the take-up reel.

But realising, mid-roll, that the back-flap of the camera was aligned OUTSIDE of the edge of the base plate .... or even opening the camera back mid-roll? .... been there, done that!

[BradS]

54 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

But realizing, mid-roll, that the back-flap of the camera was aligned OUTSIDE of the edge of the base plate  .... been there, done that!

 

Yup. I've done that too.

Edited November 13, 2020 by BradS

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, Jon Warwick said:

or even opening the camera back mid-roll?

I almost did that once.  It wasn't mid-roll, I'd finished the roll and was rushing to remove it and load another one.  In my haste, I unlatched the bottom plate without rewinding the film back into the canister and was just about to remove it when I caught myself.  I wasn't completely sure if I caught myself before I let light into the camera, but I quickly relatched the bottom plate and rewound the film before opening the camera up again.  I was pretty sure I'd ruined the roll but it turned out it was fine.  Close call, though.

[andrew01]

On 11/11/2020 at 10:07 PM, 250swb said:

Don't be mean when you load the film, wind on one or two frames before closing the back. After closing the back wind on to #1 and take up any slack by winding the rewind crank back, if everything is ok you will feel resistance.

I wouldn’t do it like that, because after closing the back you still need to burn the film that was exposed in the film gate.  On most film cameras I wind on as much needed to get top and bottom sprockets engaged (usually half a stroke), then I close the back and take up the tension on the rewind lever.  I then finish the first stroke and fire two additional blanks with the back closed, while watching the rewind lever to make sure if it turns.  

On an M6 I follow the advice in the manual about not being too fussy about engaging the sprockets, the design of the mechanism ensures this will happen when you close the back.  The key step is to immediately take up slack on the rewind lever after closing the back, and then watch for the rewind lever turning while firing two blanks.

Edited November 13, 2020 by andrew01

[RayD28]

14 hours ago, logan2z said:

You seem to have gone off half, er, cocked  

I've read the manual and know how to load film in an M camera. Been doing it for years and have never mis-loaded a roll.  What I was saying was that it would be interesting to see a visualization of what the camera is doing internally as the film is wound on/off and advanced frame by frame i.e. the mechanics of the winding lever, rewind (R) button, rewind crank, tulip etc.  I wasn't referring to visual instructions on how to load film into the camera. 

Surely there is something on Youtube.  If not, you might burn a roll (or at least part of one) by loading and leaving the base plate off and camera back down and watching the winding unwinding process.  Though I'm not sure if you could see how the R button mechanically works. 

[BlueIn2Red]

3 hours ago, andrew01 said:

I wouldn’t do it like that, because after closing the back you still need to burn the film that was exposed in the film gate.  On most film cameras I wind on as much needed to get top and bottom sprockets engaged (usually half a stroke), then I close the back and take up the tension on the rewind lever.  I then finish the first stroke and fire two additional blanks with the back closed, while watching the rewind lever to make sure if it turns.  

On an M6 I follow the advice in the manual about not being too fussy about engaging the sprockets, the design of the mechanism ensures this will happen when you close the back.  The key step is to immediately take up slack on the rewind lever after closing the back, and then watch for the rewind lever turning while firing two blanks.

The Leica manual (for the MP/M-A, but I presume the M6 etc as well) actually says to advance the film once, before then taking up the slack. Not sure how much difference it makes, but that's what I've done since actually reading the manual (!), and I've not had a bad load since (I take no special measures to ensure the film is on the sprockets before closing the back either, because the manual doesn't say that).

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[RayD28]

On 11/11/2020 at 1:55 PM, new-m-york-6 said:

Hi all, still new to the M6 (2 months) and experienced something for the first time. I believe I loaded the camera right when switching out film but noticed during shooting that it was advancing a bit too easily. When the roll was "done" it didn't get stuck at 35/36 like normal. I then tried to rewind and it was effortless so I opened up and the film was entirely in the canister. Today the lab said the roll was blank.

1) Has this happened to anyone?

2) I don't understand how this happened, maybe I didn't take enough shots to advance when loading? Why would the film go entirely back into the canister then?

3) If it advanced a few frames and I got shots, wouldn't those be on my negatives? How did it turn all blank.

Hopefully it was human error, RIP my shots.

 

1 -- No, but I tend to wind up a lot of film checking the teeth are aligned and film is spooling.  I sometimes only get 34 or 35 shots on the roll but most of the time get at least 36.  

2 -- Not sure but I have to think the rewinding process would pull the film back into the canister even if the film did not wind around the spool.

3 -- Lens cap left on? I've done that several times but fortunately not for an entire roll.